Matt M

So it's just automatic? He just pays Werks and everything is perfect? Then why are they not getting tons of these types of builds? Sorry, but you are going to find out that this is harder than you think. But I'll stop talking about it for now. Let's put a completion date on this, though. You tell me when you expect to see this 600whp LNF Cobalt roll out of their shop. Then we will resume this conversation at that time and I will look like an idiot and eat my words.

kxrida2000

iTrader: (12)

The question was a smart ass remark and you know it. What the **** do u think would happen if he build didn't work out, the customer would be pissed and either bail on the project or come to you.

Matt M

The callback system is the "dumbest ****" you've even heard? Would you prefer to get a busy signal all day? Seriously, you have no idea. Furthermore, it clearly states that it is a callback system. If you kept hanging up when the message played, then that is clearly your fault.

Matt M

I think you lost the context of the original statement at this point. It was said that once the build is done that there would be no more debating about werks competing with zzp. I simply asked what would happen if the build did not pan out. Would people stop arguing? I doubt it.

Powell Race Parts

iTrader: (3)

It must be the freaking time change. I had a horrible day yesterday with a stupid aftermarket pos shifter and seized shifter cables; machinist milled through an LSJ IM and scrapped it accidentally; power went out at Gloria's house; people are japping ZZP headers and selling them for chump change, and Matt M is cranky.

ZZP have it right. call back. I dont, so spend way too much time on the phone. lol
but it makes my day when something goes right.
Please god, can something go right today?

Matt M

Hi, John!

Powell Race Parts

iTrader: (3)

Hi matt
thanks god.

Matt M

I'd like to add one more thing. There is no need to get mad about anything. There can be competition without people getting upset. I like Werks. Dave has always been really nice to us, and I get along with Matt just fine. Look at it this way- I like my Grandma, too, but if someone told me that she can easily run as fast as I can and was willing to put up $15k based on this, I would also question their decision. Ok, maybe that's a little more extreme, but the point is that it has nothing to do with liking or not liking someone.

Scythe_Snake

Well said. Shows this isn't personal. Well shouldn't be

AaronJ

iTrader: (4)

^This is true. You guys returned my phone call within hours.


After following/reading this whole thread, the only person in here who is making themselves sound like an ass is kxrida2000 . More knowledgeable than most, at 22? Haha, I'm a senior engineer for a "vehicle manufacturer" (I will not state which), but I don't spout off about it. What you don't know about part design and vehicle engineering would fill a warehouse, so take a seat junior.

I can see both sides of the coin on this one. ZZP is pretty much the only one pumping out consistant high HP LNF builds. Werks has been working with kappas (and the LNF) for years as well, but no high HP builds. Does that mean Werks can't? No. It just means that Werks might hit a snag they've never encountered before reaching for new highs, where ZZP has already figured it all out and has a good formula. If I was the OP, I would have went with ZZP because they have done it before and have all the snags/issues figured out. Unless Werks is cutting him a huge deal and he's saving a bunch of money with them, the risk isn't worth "trying someone new". Its the same reason I went to ZZP for my ZFR. The ZFR is on tons of cars and working great, and I couldn't wait for Werks to come out with their new bolt on EFR, the WR3, and have a bunch of people use/test it first. Don't get me wrong, I've talked with Omnitech before and I've bought parts from Werks so its not like I'm nutswinging for ZZP. I'm sure I'll be buying more parts (braces and sway bars maybe, hehe) from Werks next year for my Solstice because they have the reputation for those parts.

Nfamous60

iTrader: (11)

Guy u are fuccn up the object of this thread man take it pms. Or swap numbers and hash it out, OP has made its decision zzp and Pwerks spoke their.pieces on the platform and it's obvious your tryin to be a dicc to one of the pioneer companies for this platform, no point in jumping into other platforms when they specialize in this one, their name gets around after a lnf or lsj spank. The dumb ass Honda driver and they want to KNo Who built it... If u dnt own a cobalt y r u even on here....

kxrida2000

iTrader: (12)

What the **** does that have to do with working on cars and modding them? Take a seat grandpa I didn't ask about part design nor did I say I knew about part design and manufacturing.

kxrida2000

iTrader: (12)

The only reason I'm on here is to constantly watch retards post dumb threads to be honest. Zzp is an awesome company I already said that many times, I bought my **** from them, their customer service to me sucked. I got a runaround answer about my manifold twice, why should I try to run circles to get ahold of them when I needed my car finished. I'm not gonna answer dumb question after dumb question about a new warped manifold.

Scythe_Snake

So you're even less invested in this than I thought.

Okay so, you felt you got the run around and you don't like their customer service. Point understood.

Now then, your point has been made what else? :P

kxrida2000

iTrader: (12)

It's not well said cause I never said anything about it being personal, I said Matt seems to think that werks can't build an ecotec. Why? What makes it so challenging to do?


This is like Titan saying only they can build a supra motor, I don't understand why people only think zzp can build an ecotec?

kxrida2000

iTrader: (12)

Keep in mind I've never even bought a part from werks it just seems like people are brainwashed that only zzp can build an ecotec because they are the only ones who have done it. As you said scythe, cobalt owners are cheap as he'll so there really aren't many high hp builds

Matt M

There's a lot more than you think. We build many here. Maybe 10% of them post about it here.

I'm serious about putting a date on this. If you are so confident that this will be done(with this customer or a different one), give me a date to check back and we can continue the discussion at that time.

Scythe_Snake

It is well said because it shows a sportsman like attitude. Read what he says. He said they haven't built one. Which is true.

Motors can be put together, but as wuth my EFI-Logics example, just because you tighten the bolts doesn't mean it will all work together.

Titan is the leader in the 2j world and no matter if people go to Sound Perf or elsewhere...Titan is the holy grail and they do have some of the best 2j builds around since they pioneered it.



So what if people like what zzp does? Zzp has done the builds and its all over the forums and they keep coming out with new parts and they have the numbers and proof to back it up. So yes they will have a following.

Like I said....ttr has made a cobalt part or two....doesn't mean I would trust them to build me a single motor. Lol.

kxrida2000

iTrader: (12)

1. I am not employed at werks
2. I don't know the guy or his build plans
3. I don't give a rats ass if werks does the build or not I was just simply stating why you think zzp is the only one who can do a successful build.

Can you answer my question as to why it's so hard to build a high hp ecotec? That's literally all I'm asking and was 80% of my point in this thread besides stating that ur customer service was lacking to me with the manifold. Other times I got a good answer from u guys.

Like I said I like your company, if I had a cobalt or gp I'd buy parts from you again

kxrida2000

iTrader: (12)

I know all about Titan lol my friend has a 1200hp supra they built and zzp is the Titan of the cobalt world BUT I'm simply stating, there are other companies capable just like other companies build 1k horsepower supras.

Do u think zzp is the only company that can complete a high hp build?

kdub1492

iTrader: (8)

I think what KX is trying to get at is pretty simple.

Look at it this way, Zzp and Werks vary in what they do. Pwerks can make one hell of a track car and that has been proven. Now if I were to say that ZZP can't build a car built for a road course I can almost bet that Matt M or Ryan or Zoomer would just in and argue that. I could also base it on the fact they they have not done so and Pwerks is the superior shop in that regard. The only difference in that is that I would never discount the fact that ZZP could do so, the way that they are about Pwerks building a high HP LNF. Basically it comes down to hoping the kid put up the money and we can get the proof. I have full confidence in the fact that Pwerks can build him the car he wants and it will be the same amount and every other big build (and they won't be using ZZP parts)

Scythe_Snake

That's not what he is doing, or how he is coming of. KX is being confrontational about it and trivializing a high HP build. It does take alot, and not just throwing money at a shop to build it. Pwerks has a lot of LNF knowledge behind it and has had their hands in many other cars, but, fairly, a high HP LNF hasn't yet come out of there. High being 500+. Matt isn't saying they can't, but he is saying that they haven't and that ZZP is the best at doing it, which he stated above. I don't think that's an unfair thing to say since they're the only ones to have done it, do you?


Also ZZP parts will be used in this build :P :
PS - I'm taking out my headlights today! Lemme know if you got those others

Matt M

If someone emailed me asking about setting his Solstice up for a road coarse, I would send him to Pwerks. No questions asked.

If they don't use ZZP parts, then it will end up costing the customer WAY more money to reach his goal.

It's not hard for us at this point because we have gone through a lot of testing to get to where we are. However, other companies would have to either go through the same phases to get there, or else use our parts and knowledge as a shortcut. The reason I get defensive about what it takes to build a 600whp daily driver 2 liter DI motor affordably is because I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours figuring out how to do it. When I pull up my car on the dyno computer to look for old charts, it clams up and then tells me to limit my search to less than 1000 runs. I've had about 10 different motors, 12 different turbos, 6 different clutches, 10 different sets of cams, and a few different transmissions in there. I've broke blocks in half and twisted rods like a pretzel. I've run as much as 52 psi of boost and 600 ft lbs of torque. I've tested 6 or 7 different controllers for the 5th injector. Every time testing fails or succeeds, it moves us in the right direction. Furthermore, when I dyno test, I am monitoring more than 50 parameters. We measure things like exhaust temp, turbine wheel rpm, exhaust backpressure. When I look at a compressor map, I am not satisfied with a boost reading in the intake manifold. I take the extra time to find out what pressure ratio the compressor wheel is actually subjected to. When we monitor cam timing, I use a lab scope to actually watch it on a screen. I also watch the injector timing on the scope. When everyone was saying things like, "try more pluses on the intake and more minuses on the exhaust cam" we were discussing the actual centerlines and properly understanding why the charts are set up the way that they are in HP Tuners and when you would want to advance or retard either cam. I do the same with the hpfp solenoid. How many other companies are monitoring the opening and closing points of the pump solenoid and making adjustments? And this is only the stuff that we don't mind talking about. There is always more going on behind the scenes here than you know about. Typically we are a year ahead of what parts are being released or even talked about. All of this is why ZZP is better at building high power LNFs than any other company out there.

Sox-Fan

iTrader: (7)

Matt, I frequently see you say that ZZP is better, but have never seen you say why. That was a first. And it was actually impressive. You should do more of that.

ThexGovenor

iTrader: (2)

As a point of reference on ZZP's customer service. I have had them replace a blown resonator for free, fix a headgasket for free and help me all the way through my build. The key is good communication and understanding when installing your own parts they cant warranty the work you do. All the parts installed by them or problems with the parts themselves have been replaced no questions asked. So I am more than satisfied. Back to OP's topic.