Choosing between ZZP and AutoWerks long block
11-21-2013, 05:07 PM
#176
If someone emailed me asking about setting his Solstice up for a road coarse, I would send him to Pwerks. No questions asked.
If they don't use ZZP parts, then it will end up costing the customer WAY more money to reach his goal.
It's not hard for us at this point because we have gone through a lot of testing to get to where we are. However, other companies would have to either go through the same phases to get there, or else use our parts and knowledge as a shortcut. The reason I get defensive about what it takes to build a 600whp daily driver 2 liter DI motor affordably is because I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours figuring out how to do it. When I pull up my car on the dyno computer to look for old charts, it clams up and then tells me to limit my search to less than 1000 runs. I've had about 10 different motors, 12 different turbos, 6 different clutches, 10 different sets of cams, and a few different transmissions in there. I've broke blocks in half and twisted rods like a pretzel. I've run as much as 52 psi of boost and 600 ft lbs of torque. I've tested 6 or 7 different controllers for the 5th injector. Every time testing fails or succeeds, it moves us in uthe right direction. Furthermore, when I dyno test, I am monitoring more than 50 parameters. We measure things like exhaust temp, turbine wheel rpm, exhaust backpressure. When I look at a compressor map, I am not satisfied with a boost reading in the intake manifold. I take the extra time to find out what pressure ratio the compressor wheel is actually subjected to. When we monitor cam timing, I use a lab scope to actually watch it on a screen. I also watch the injector timing on the scope. When everyone was saying things like, "try more pluses on the intake and more minuses on the exhaust cam" we were discussing the actual centerlines and properly understanding why the charts are set up the way that they are in HP Tuners and when you would want to advance or retard either cam. I do the same with the hpfp solenoid. How many other companies are monitoring the opening and closing points of the pump solenoid and making adjustments? And this is only the stuff that we don't mind talking about. There is always more going on behind the scenes here than you know about. Typically we are a year ahead of what parts are being released or even talked about. All of this is why ZZP is better at building high power LNFs than any other company out there.
If they don't use ZZP parts, then it will end up costing the customer WAY more money to reach his goal.
It's not hard for us at this point because we have gone through a lot of testing to get to where we are. However, other companies would have to either go through the same phases to get there, or else use our parts and knowledge as a shortcut. The reason I get defensive about what it takes to build a 600whp daily driver 2 liter DI motor affordably is because I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours figuring out how to do it. When I pull up my car on the dyno computer to look for old charts, it clams up and then tells me to limit my search to less than 1000 runs. I've had about 10 different motors, 12 different turbos, 6 different clutches, 10 different sets of cams, and a few different transmissions in there. I've broke blocks in half and twisted rods like a pretzel. I've run as much as 52 psi of boost and 600 ft lbs of torque. I've tested 6 or 7 different controllers for the 5th injector. Every time testing fails or succeeds, it moves us in uthe right direction. Furthermore, when I dyno test, I am monitoring more than 50 parameters. We measure things like exhaust temp, turbine wheel rpm, exhaust backpressure. When I look at a compressor map, I am not satisfied with a boost reading in the intake manifold. I take the extra time to find out what pressure ratio the compressor wheel is actually subjected to. When we monitor cam timing, I use a lab scope to actually watch it on a screen. I also watch the injector timing on the scope. When everyone was saying things like, "try more pluses on the intake and more minuses on the exhaust cam" we were discussing the actual centerlines and properly understanding why the charts are set up the way that they are in HP Tuners and when you would want to advance or retard either cam. I do the same with the hpfp solenoid. How many other companies are monitoring the opening and closing points of the pump solenoid and making adjustments? And this is only the stuff that we don't mind talking about. There is always more going on behind the scenes here than you know about. Typically we are a year ahead of what parts are being released or even talked about. All of this is why ZZP is better at building high power LNFs than any other company out there.
11-21-2013, 07:41 PM
#177
If someone emailed me asking about setting his Solstice up for a road coarse, I would send him to Pwerks. No questions asked.
If they don't use ZZP parts, then it will end up costing the customer WAY more money to reach his goal.
It's not hard for us at this point because we have gone through a lot of testing to get to where we are. However, other companies would have to either go through the same phases to get there, or else use our parts and knowledge as a shortcut. The reason I get defensive about what it takes to build a 600whp daily driver 2 liter DI motor affordably is because I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours figuring out how to do it. When I pull up my car on the dyno computer to look for old charts, it clams up and then tells me to limit my search to less than 1000 runs. I've had about 10 different motors, 12 different turbos, 6 different clutches, 10 different sets of cams, and a few different transmissions in there. I've broke blocks in half and twisted rods like a pretzel. I've run as much as 52 psi of boost and 600 ft lbs of torque. I've tested 6 or 7 different controllers for the 5th injector. Every time testing fails or succeeds, it moves us in the right direction. Furthermore, when I dyno test, I am monitoring more than 50 parameters. We measure things like exhaust temp, turbine wheel rpm, exhaust backpressure. When I look at a compressor map, I am not satisfied with a boost reading in the intake manifold. I take the extra time to find out what pressure ratio the compressor wheel is actually subjected to. When we monitor cam timing, I use a lab scope to actually watch it on a screen. I also watch the injector timing on the scope. When everyone was saying things like, "try more pluses on the intake and more minuses on the exhaust cam" we were discussing the actual centerlines and properly understanding why the charts are set up the way that they are in HP Tuners and when you would want to advance or retard either cam. I do the same with the hpfp solenoid. How many other companies are monitoring the opening and closing points of the pump solenoid and making adjustments? And this is only the stuff that we don't mind talking about. There is always more going on behind the scenes here than you know about. Typically we are a year ahead of what parts are being released or even talked about. All of this is why ZZP is better at building high power LNFs than any other company out there.
If they don't use ZZP parts, then it will end up costing the customer WAY more money to reach his goal.
It's not hard for us at this point because we have gone through a lot of testing to get to where we are. However, other companies would have to either go through the same phases to get there, or else use our parts and knowledge as a shortcut. The reason I get defensive about what it takes to build a 600whp daily driver 2 liter DI motor affordably is because I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours figuring out how to do it. When I pull up my car on the dyno computer to look for old charts, it clams up and then tells me to limit my search to less than 1000 runs. I've had about 10 different motors, 12 different turbos, 6 different clutches, 10 different sets of cams, and a few different transmissions in there. I've broke blocks in half and twisted rods like a pretzel. I've run as much as 52 psi of boost and 600 ft lbs of torque. I've tested 6 or 7 different controllers for the 5th injector. Every time testing fails or succeeds, it moves us in the right direction. Furthermore, when I dyno test, I am monitoring more than 50 parameters. We measure things like exhaust temp, turbine wheel rpm, exhaust backpressure. When I look at a compressor map, I am not satisfied with a boost reading in the intake manifold. I take the extra time to find out what pressure ratio the compressor wheel is actually subjected to. When we monitor cam timing, I use a lab scope to actually watch it on a screen. I also watch the injector timing on the scope. When everyone was saying things like, "try more pluses on the intake and more minuses on the exhaust cam" we were discussing the actual centerlines and properly understanding why the charts are set up the way that they are in HP Tuners and when you would want to advance or retard either cam. I do the same with the hpfp solenoid. How many other companies are monitoring the opening and closing points of the pump solenoid and making adjustments? And this is only the stuff that we don't mind talking about. There is always more going on behind the scenes here than you know about. Typically we are a year ahead of what parts are being released or even talked about. All of this is why ZZP is better at building high power LNFs than any other company out there.
11-21-2013, 09:27 PM
#178
Former Vendor
Thanks. I often do say that we invest a lot more time and money, but I understand that doesn't always mean much without examples.
11-21-2013, 09:31 PM
#179
Former Vendor
As a point of reference on ZZP's customer service. I have had them replace a blown resonator for free, fix a headgasket for free and help me all the way through my build. The key is good communication and understanding when installing your own parts they cant warranty the work you do. All the parts installed by them or problems with the parts themselves have been replaced no questions asked. So I am more than satisfied. Back to OP's topic.
11-21-2013, 09:34 PM
#180
Former Vendor
Thanks. Sorry for getting defensive. I do because we work much harder to get to this point than other shops. When someone comes along and says those other shops can do just as well as us, that could only happen if they were better at this than we are. Otherwise we would not have to work at it way harder.
11-21-2013, 10:12 PM
#181
Super Moderator
Platinum Member
iTrader: (16)
Holy derailment. Its good to see people voice their opinions or state their history with company x or company y, but just remember, just because someone does not agree with what you say, does not mean they are arguing with you, or talking down to you. A good debate can be had even with no actual outcome of who or what is better if both parties remain level headed. That being said i was generally speaking, not directed at anyone here. Just food for thought.
11-21-2013, 11:29 PM
#183
^^^^ this....the arguing should be kept private rather then trying to derail or attempt to persuade the OP in a diff direction. Not saying thats whats going but KX all of what you said could have been put in the vendor review not this OP's thread when he needs insight and direction for the amount of money he is about to drop, least in the vendor review you could have got the feedback you were prolly looking for with your manifold issue if you ever resolved that. I myself have ordered from both companies havent had any issues but far as a company who does alot of in-house testing fabricating and research kinda does something to kno that if the phone isnt answered they arent sitting around talking **** twiddling their thumbs. in this profession u need to learn professional courtesy and patience both of which u need to work on.
11-22-2013, 02:04 AM
#184
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Well, I hope I will be able to give you guys all the results about my build, even if it will take me some time since we are talking about a build that will be close to $ 20k
11-22-2013, 09:24 AM
#185
Thanks. The customers that are on the same page with us do get treated well as you are saying. It's the guys that want to do it all their own way without actually understanding the difficulty of running a business like this that end up having a hard time. Example- in this case kxrida doesn't leave a message for our call back system because he thinks it's "dumb as ****", but he would be the same person complaining if he had to be on hold for a long time.
As far as the call back I still am not a fan, if u guys had someone to dedicate to the phone and email specifically even if it was some highschool kid making minimum wage to give a brief answer I fell you would benefit. But Bout the manifold I did get those 2 dumb answers and I really didn't have time to wait and sit around is all I'm saying. If you met me I'm one of the most easy going people out there.
And I agree about the getting defensive and I have thick skin and don't get easily offended haha. I'm 22 And have nice things so the things I hear at car meets and stuff is ridiculous. I'm very knowledgeable with cars as I first started when I was very young. I've restored 2 classic cars with my dad and am now putting a solid axle, mini tubbing and 4 linking an rx7. So when I made the comment about knowing more than most of the forum, most of the forum could not do stuff like that.
11-22-2013, 09:31 AM
#186
^^^^ this....the arguing should be kept private rather then trying to derail or attempt to persuade the OP in a diff direction. Not saying thats whats going but KX all of what you said could have been put in the vendor review not this OP's thread when he needs insight and direction for the amount of money he is about to drop, least in the vendor review you could have got the feedback you were prolly looking for with your manifold issue if you ever resolved that. I myself have ordered from both companies havent had any issues but far as a company who does alot of in-house testing fabricating and research kinda does something to kno that if the phone isnt answered they arent sitting around talking **** twiddling their thumbs. in this profession u need to learn professional courtesy and patience both of which u need to work on.
Its no big deal it was 60 bucks in a build I had close to 10k into. I was just saying if they would have said OK send it back or even gave me an answer besides its not warped I woulda waited and sent it back. I didn't have time to answer a slew of questions about it when all the flange is is a straight edge. Oh well it was like 3 years ago almost
11-22-2013, 10:50 AM
#187
Former Vendor
As far as the call back I still am not a fan, if u guys had someone to dedicate to the phone and email specifically even if it was some highschool kid making minimum wage to give a brief answer I fell you would benefit. But Bout the manifold I did get those 2 dumb answers and I really didn't have time to wait and sit around is all I'm saying. If you met me I'm one of the most easy going people out there.
11-23-2013, 10:41 AM
#188
It's not hard for us at this point because we have gone through a lot of testing to get to where we are. However, other companies would have to either go through the same phases to get there, or else use our parts and knowledge as a shortcut. The reason I get defensive about what it takes to build a 600whp daily driver 2 liter DI motor affordably is because I have spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours figuring out how to do it. When I pull up my car on the dyno computer to look for old charts, it clams up and then tells me to limit my search to less than 1000 runs. I've had about 10 different motors, 12 different turbos, 6 different clutches, 10 different sets of cams, and a few different transmissions in there. I've broke blocks in half and twisted rods like a pretzel. I've run as much as 52 psi of boost and 600 ft lbs of torque. I've tested 6 or 7 different controllers for the 5th injector. Every time testing fails or succeeds, it moves us in the right direction. Furthermore, when I dyno test, I am monitoring more than 50 parameters. We measure things like exhaust temp, turbine wheel rpm, exhaust backpressure. When I look at a compressor map, I am not satisfied with a boost reading in the intake manifold. I take the extra time to find out what pressure ratio the compressor wheel is actually subjected to. When we monitor cam timing, I use a lab scope to actually watch it on a screen. I also watch the injector timing on the scope. When everyone was saying things like, "try more pluses on the intake and more minuses on the exhaust cam" we were discussing the actual centerlines and properly understanding why the charts are set up the way that they are in HP Tuners and when you would want to advance or retard either cam. I do the same with the hpfp solenoid. How many other companies are monitoring the opening and closing points of the pump solenoid and making adjustments? And this is only the stuff that we don't mind talking about. There is always more going on behind the scenes here than you know about. Typically we are a year ahead of what parts are being released or even talked about. All of this is why ZZP is better at building high power LNFs than any other company out there.
The problem with forums is that things can appear easy. We present a finished product and it looks easy. However when doing builds that push the limits of what has been going on, things take place that people don't know exist.
It's frustrating for me to see people say 'I'm going to do this' because I know we've been working on it for months as a team and had/having a really hard time. There is literally close to 0% chance someone else is going to be able to figure it out. If they were capable, they would have other products out already. Things build on past knowledge.
LNF fueling has been the hold up of making HP since day one. People tried different pumps in the tank, adding meth, ECU tuning but really no one went anywhere.
Then ZZP was the first to raise fuel pressure to surpass what anyone else had done:
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l...pdates-200854/
That was 3 years ago! This was before HP tuners allowed HP pump adjustment.
Go back and look. Matt did what no one else had done. If it was easy why didn't anyone else do it?
Problem was that making power broke the motor.
Then we ran into the HP pump running out. Guess who solved it? Yup, ZZP. Again, why didn't anyone else do it?
Then we came up with the 5th injector and designed an electronic controller light years ahead of what any meth kit style what doing. This allowed stock like idle and driving with more fuel.
Then larger injectors. Along the way we keep breaking things during development. https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l...k-like-254159/ Do you want that to be your motor or a test motor by a company that's done it already?
That is 4 fueling innovations that ZZP came up with that you HAVE to have to make big power. So it's very frustrating to hear someone say 'what's the big deal?' because w/o ZZP no one would be making power and we'd still be discussing how to get more fuel. This thread at one point was 'speculation' about what companies could do. Aa company that has 100% of the time been first and usually only to solve problems for years and years; how much sense does it make to claim that there is no proof that another company won't figure out the next hurdles? Even if they did it would be the 5th or 6th fuel upgrade. How do you know it would play well with the other mods ZZP came out with? It's like claiming that there are companies other than intel that could come up with a 5Ghz processor and it will be compatible with everything. Possible? yes. Likely? No. Close to 0% chance actually.
Since that time ZZP has moved on to products and designs we have been working on now for more than a year. I know that no one else is talking about them and when we release them I'll probably hear about how anyone could do that. Yet somehow they aren't. If you want 700WHP you can't go there on publicly released products. We'd have to get you into things like 4 lobe cam designs on the HP system and advanced controllers, modified injectors, gen 4 blocks, custom in tank pumps, custom ECU tuning. All things I know no one else can do or has even thought about doing because no one has even released the stuff we figured out 4 years ago yet. And if by a miracle of god someone was working on them or is now going to because of my post I know you're going to fail because we have. Some ideas we've been failing at for a year. However we're almost there and we have a head start of over a year on you. If a customer came in and REALLY wanted 800WHP we know what it takes and what custom stuff we'd have to do. Another company is going to do what? Guess? Call ZZP? Tell the customer it's going to a year on their build?
Of course none of this factors in one of the most important things. A warranty. Parts fail all the time. We replace parts and engines all the time. Sometimes we do these crazy builds and the customer's motor blows up on the dyno before he even gets to drive the car or see the build. We then figure it out, replace everything, and get it right. If another company is willing to do that if a ZZP part fails on their build, then they have a better warranty than ZZP. If a customer is willing to pay for the build twice then they have deeper pockets than most people. This is just something to consider. Often the most important thing to consider when dumping 10k+ into a build.
Last edited by Zooomer; 11-23-2013 at 10:52 AM.
12-03-2013, 08:36 PM
#191
Does Autowerks cylinder hone for a legit piston to bore clearance? ZZP doesn't.
And for the price, either way I'd be doing gapless rings. Add $250ish
And make sure they either diamond grit lap the valves or get a proper angle valve job.
Compression and leakdown, for the $$$ you are spending both should be 100% perfect.
And for the price, either way I'd be doing gapless rings. Add $250ish
And make sure they either diamond grit lap the valves or get a proper angle valve job.
Compression and leakdown, for the $$$ you are spending both should be 100% perfect.
12-03-2013, 08:47 PM
#192
Damn lot of money $7200 I just put a balanced 2.1 LNF short block together for $2300. Weisco 88mm pistons, Molanar rods Gen 3 2.4 block .0035 wall clearance. Add a new timing cover, timing set, ATI balancer and ARP head studs brings it to about $3100
But you have to be willing to do some work yourself.
But you have to be willing to do some work yourself.
12-03-2013, 08:55 PM
#193
if it's easy to build an Ecotec then ZZP isn't very good because it's been very difficult for us.
The problem with forums is that things can appear easy. We present a finished product and it looks easy. However when doing builds that push the limits of what has been going on, things take place that people don't know exist.
It's frustrating for me to see people say 'I'm going to do this' because I know we've been working on it for months as a team and had/having a really hard time. There is literally close to 0% chance someone else is going to be able to figure it out. If they were capable, they would have other products out already. Things build on past knowledge.
LNF fueling has been the hold up of making HP since day one. People tried different pumps in the tank, adding meth, ECU tuning but really no one went anywhere.
Then ZZP was the first to raise fuel pressure to surpass what anyone else had done:
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l...pdates-200854/
That was 3 years ago! This was before HP tuners allowed HP pump adjustment.
Go back and look. Matt did what no one else had done. If it was easy why didn't anyone else do it?
Problem was that making power broke the motor.
Then we ran into the HP pump running out. Guess who solved it? Yup, ZZP. Again, why didn't anyone else do it?
Then we came up with the 5th injector and designed an electronic controller light years ahead of what any meth kit style what doing. This allowed stock like idle and driving with more fuel.
Then larger injectors. Along the way we keep breaking things during development. https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l...k-like-254159/ Do you want that to be your motor or a test motor by a company that's done it already?
That is 4 fueling innovations that ZZP came up with that you HAVE to have to make big power. So it's very frustrating to hear someone say 'what's the big deal?' because w/o ZZP no one would be making power and we'd still be discussing how to get more fuel. This thread at one point was 'speculation' about what companies could do. Aa company that has 100% of the time been first and usually only to solve problems for years and years; how much sense does it make to claim that there is no proof that another company won't figure out the next hurdles? Even if they did it would be the 5th or 6th fuel upgrade. How do you know it would play well with the other mods ZZP came out with? It's like claiming that there are companies other than intel that could come up with a 5Ghz processor and it will be compatible with everything. Possible? yes. Likely? No. Close to 0% chance actually.
Since that time ZZP has moved on to products and designs we have been working on now for more than a year. I know that no one else is talking about them and when we release them I'll probably hear about how anyone could do that. Yet somehow they aren't. If you want 700WHP you can't go there on publicly released products. We'd have to get you into things like 4 lobe cam designs on the HP system and advanced controllers, modified injectors, gen 4 blocks, custom in tank pumps, custom ECU tuning. All things I know no one else can do or has even thought about doing because no one has even released the stuff we figured out 4 years ago yet. And if by a miracle of god someone was working on them or is now going to because of my post I know you're going to fail because we have. Some ideas we've been failing at for a year. However we're almost there and we have a head start of over a year on you. If a customer came in and REALLY wanted 800WHP we know what it takes and what custom stuff we'd have to do. Another company is going to do what? Guess? Call ZZP? Tell the customer it's going to a year on their build?
Of course none of this factors in one of the most important things. A warranty. Parts fail all the time. We replace parts and engines all the time. Sometimes we do these crazy builds and the customer's motor blows up on the dyno before he even gets to drive the car or see the build. We then figure it out, replace everything, and get it right. If another company is willing to do that if a ZZP part fails on their build, then they have a better warranty than ZZP. If a customer is willing to pay for the build twice then they have deeper pockets than most people. This is just something to consider. Often the most important thing to consider when dumping 10k+ into a build.
The problem with forums is that things can appear easy. We present a finished product and it looks easy. However when doing builds that push the limits of what has been going on, things take place that people don't know exist.
It's frustrating for me to see people say 'I'm going to do this' because I know we've been working on it for months as a team and had/having a really hard time. There is literally close to 0% chance someone else is going to be able to figure it out. If they were capable, they would have other products out already. Things build on past knowledge.
LNF fueling has been the hold up of making HP since day one. People tried different pumps in the tank, adding meth, ECU tuning but really no one went anywhere.
Then ZZP was the first to raise fuel pressure to surpass what anyone else had done:
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l...pdates-200854/
That was 3 years ago! This was before HP tuners allowed HP pump adjustment.
Go back and look. Matt did what no one else had done. If it was easy why didn't anyone else do it?
Problem was that making power broke the motor.
Then we ran into the HP pump running out. Guess who solved it? Yup, ZZP. Again, why didn't anyone else do it?
Then we came up with the 5th injector and designed an electronic controller light years ahead of what any meth kit style what doing. This allowed stock like idle and driving with more fuel.
Then larger injectors. Along the way we keep breaking things during development. https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l...k-like-254159/ Do you want that to be your motor or a test motor by a company that's done it already?
That is 4 fueling innovations that ZZP came up with that you HAVE to have to make big power. So it's very frustrating to hear someone say 'what's the big deal?' because w/o ZZP no one would be making power and we'd still be discussing how to get more fuel. This thread at one point was 'speculation' about what companies could do. Aa company that has 100% of the time been first and usually only to solve problems for years and years; how much sense does it make to claim that there is no proof that another company won't figure out the next hurdles? Even if they did it would be the 5th or 6th fuel upgrade. How do you know it would play well with the other mods ZZP came out with? It's like claiming that there are companies other than intel that could come up with a 5Ghz processor and it will be compatible with everything. Possible? yes. Likely? No. Close to 0% chance actually.
Since that time ZZP has moved on to products and designs we have been working on now for more than a year. I know that no one else is talking about them and when we release them I'll probably hear about how anyone could do that. Yet somehow they aren't. If you want 700WHP you can't go there on publicly released products. We'd have to get you into things like 4 lobe cam designs on the HP system and advanced controllers, modified injectors, gen 4 blocks, custom in tank pumps, custom ECU tuning. All things I know no one else can do or has even thought about doing because no one has even released the stuff we figured out 4 years ago yet. And if by a miracle of god someone was working on them or is now going to because of my post I know you're going to fail because we have. Some ideas we've been failing at for a year. However we're almost there and we have a head start of over a year on you. If a customer came in and REALLY wanted 800WHP we know what it takes and what custom stuff we'd have to do. Another company is going to do what? Guess? Call ZZP? Tell the customer it's going to a year on their build?
Of course none of this factors in one of the most important things. A warranty. Parts fail all the time. We replace parts and engines all the time. Sometimes we do these crazy builds and the customer's motor blows up on the dyno before he even gets to drive the car or see the build. We then figure it out, replace everything, and get it right. If another company is willing to do that if a ZZP part fails on their build, then they have a better warranty than ZZP. If a customer is willing to pay for the build twice then they have deeper pockets than most people. This is just something to consider. Often the most important thing to consider when dumping 10k+ into a build.
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