I run a 5th and 6th injector :shrugs:

 

^^ LOL... This guy...


Okay. As they say "Build it, and they will come". If you come up with one that's better and cheaper I will buy one. Money in hand. I'm not even joking.

 

Hi, John. I'm curious, did you actually ask the guys that are running our setup if their cars "run like crap?" Or did you come up with this theory partially based on your hatred for ZZP and partially based on assumptions. You don't have to answer that question if you don't want to. We already know the answer.

To everyone else- I apologize for the insults to the Cobalt community that are likely to ensue.

 

We are working on a new electronic control that will make the unit easier to install and easier to tune. It will be LNF specific. The injector placement will remain the same.

 

I am not going to argue but people cant not believe how smooth my car drives, and can make that kind of power and go fast. It is literally like a stock car driving around. Runs great.

 

QUOTE=Matt M;6558867]Hi, John. I'm curious, did you actually ask the guys that are running our setup if their cars "run like crap?" Or did you come up with this theory partially based on your hatred for ZZP and partially based on assumptions. You don't have to answer that question if you don't want to. We already know the answer.

To everyone else- I apologize for the insults to the Cobalt community that are likely to ensue. [/QUOTE]

 

90% of Cobalt owners just bolt on parts and could care less about the $500 and since there were only about 3500 LNF Cobalts built not too many companies are going to develop any thing for our cars. At least 500 have allready been totaled !!!! So when you come up with a better fuel pump and or injector let us know.

 

There is a link on the first page explaining installation and how his design is better. I'm not saying I'm for the 5th injector or not as you can see in that very thread that I ask questions doubting the distribution of the fuel and got hammered by John(constructive criticism) but not but hurt lol.

I have the hardware for this kit but I haven't put it on cause I have been researching more on this before putting it in.

Matt, Your a drag Racing guy and most of you here are as well. For me I tell everyone that the key is application for your car. In my case, where I'm second guessing things, I'm curious how a 5th injector would do in a car meant to go Open Road Racing. The sessions can be 25-30min or longer @ a constant(in the powerband) operation. When you guys did your testing for this product did you see how well it was distributed down the runners?

For Drag Racing I can see this being fine and not putting the engine at risk cause engine operation are in spurts and not much fuel is used. For those that have one and don't have an application and just want to go fast, Driving around town carefully would not activate the injector anyway cause you don't need the extra fuel, no **** its going to drive normal , ITS NOT ON! Stock DI is running it.

Anyway, my concern is Cylinders 1 & 4 is all. I'm using ethanol and looking at the intake(got a spare) I can see and I'm sure all of you know that from the location of the injector(I don't give a **** what kit it is) to cylinders 1 & 4 the distance(though small) is much greater than Cylinder 2 & 3. The air coming in has a molecular weight of 29 g/mol while Ethanol has a weight of 46 g/mol. Its heavier, ever so slightly so that coupled with the way air travels in our Intake manifold and the slight difference in distances of 2 & 3 and 1 & 4 have me just thinking twice about this ****. I'm not saying I won't do it I just want you to think of it taking my application into consideration and not drag racing. See what I mean?

 

We have talked about this a few times. What you need to remember is that the 5th injector is only providing a small amount of the fuel that you are using. To start, you can already make ~450whp on E85 with just a larger pump lobe. If you use the 5th injector to push closer to 500whp, then the 5th injector would only be providing about 10% of your fuel. Now the accuracy between the cylinders is completely meaningless. Even if you had 10% more fuel in one runner than another, that would only amount to a .1 difference in AFR. Running on ethanol, .1 difference in AFR means almost nothing. Furthermore, the fuel distribution is better than that, anyway.

I believe that our kit is better than the DIY type setup shown elsewhere. Ours sprays the fuel directly across the center of the throttle body for the most even fuel distribution. The other setup puts the fuel in an area more likely to induce uneven fuel distribution.

 

Thanks

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wenB...e_gdata_player

I running the 5th injector on my Bnr full e85. Run was with a turboed v8 rx7. I wouldn't be running this good without the 5th injector.

 

Who are you trying to kid Matt? Is your grasp of physics that pitiful that you really believe this? Anyone looking at the pictures of an LNF intake manifold would see you're completely wrong here in your description. (I'll put a couple pictures here for guys to see the bowl that your injector kit is put into.) Your injector "sprays" it's fuel into a small bowl, then the LIQUID pours through a passage and RUNS out the SIDE of the throttle bore. There is no "spraying" of fuel coming out of that hole, believe me. Only an idiot would think that the fuel would be even slightly atomized at that point. Anyone that's not sure can try this- get a spray bottle, spray it into your hand. What runs off of your hand, atomized spray? Ummmm no. The atomized spray turns to LIQUID as soon as it hits your hand. The same thing happens to the fuel coming out of that injector going into a hole meant for the EVAP solenoid, it instantly condenses back into a liquid. Is it a good idea to pour liquid fuel into an intake manifold? Ummm no. Is it a good idea to use a passageway meant for evap vapors as a place to put an injector into? No.

Geez dude, why don't you tell everyone how far the tip of the injector is to the bottom of that hole? Who on earth would think it's a good idea to put ANYTHING an 1/8 of an inch from the tip of an injector? You are the one that thinks your customers are idiots to try to pawn something like this off on them and feel good about it. You should be ashamed.

 

Lol, what can I say John? I guess we defy physics. Cars running our kit run great and make the power that they should for the boost level they run. There is no drop off in gains, whatsoever. You can tell us all 500 times how it can't work, but we have proven over and over again that it in fact does work, and works well. If it didn't, we would not have released it.

Since John is talking about spraying water on your hand and then letting it run off- Next, take that puddle of water on your hand and hit it with a blow gun spraying compressed air. That is a better example.

Thanks for your input, John. You will need actual data and proof to debunk our product, though. We have 2 LNF Cobalts in the 10s and another just beat a well known Procharged Camaro on a highway roll. Every one that we have dyno'd has surpassed 500whp, with a couple over 600whp. These cars are making the power, regardless of whether others think our product should not work in theory.

 

As does mine! Amazing what people who KNOW what they're doing can actually develop for the LNF...

 

Thanks! I wouldn't say that John doesn't know what he's doing. He just lets his emotions choose his battles. After that, he simply wants to say whatever he needs to in order to fight that battle. He'll get over that some day.

 

John, you failed to point out that when the injector sprays, there is a large amount of air flow going through the intake manifold. It would be impossible for any pooling to take place unless the injector was programmed to come on when the car wasn't running.

 

Using your logic, or lack of it, here's a couple more products ZZP should sell...


Leaf Blower Turbocharged Ford Ranger (HUGE Power) - YouTube

LEAFBLOWER SUPERCHARGER PT CRUISER - YouTube





Van Fuel Injection.MOV - YouTube

Civic Si with Ghetto Nitrous Adds 50whp!! - YouTube


Making X amount of power on a dyno is a retarded way of justifying the operation of a part or mod. All of these techniques made more power on the dyno, does that mean they're a good idea? NO. You could make the same power numbers on the cars you're raving about by putting a funnel in front of the turbo and pouring gas or meth into it. Is that a good idea? You need to unplug that dyno of yours and get back into the real world where your customers actually drive. If they're all racers (which they aren't), why on earth are they racing Cobalts?

Give it up Matt, your product is a bad design. Period. The End.

 

John, I have tried many times to get you to the "real world" where our customers drive. They are not having issues. The 5th injector kit helps them make a lot more HP, not 1-2whp like a leaf blower. It helps them make another 50-100 whp with no sacrifice in driveability or fuel economy. You just aren't grasping that. I don't think any of them care if our system turns the fuel into 2 parts Pepsi and 1 part cat **** before it enters the combustion chamber. As long as they can make a bunch more hp and not suffer any downsides, they will continue to run it. Now if you have evidence showing that something bad is happening, feel free to post it. To this point, you have provided none.

 

Dude really now your bashing cobalts? so what if we race our cobalts Im sure theres a couple that could be you in the quarter mile.

 

I chuckled, only a little tho

 

Cmiller? LOL

 

Wow, now YOU'RE basically saying your customers are a bunch of brainless idiots that will run anything you feed them regardless of what it is or how it works. Nice.


I'm sure that's true. The only bummer for all those guys is at the end of the track they'll still be sitting in a Cobalt. lol.

 

Yup, that's EXACTLY what he's saying...

I may just have to build a test rig to show exactly what happens. Get some clear PVC and fab something up....

 

This is retarded. GMTECH - u r spraying fuel while the car has 25psi of air flowing to it. its not going to pool. the system is not ideal obviously. the pistons have bowls which were meant for fuel to be sprayed directly into. however the system is also tried and tested. it works. the cars run fine because the system is not spraying unless you are under considerable load so the car will run great around town when you are taking it easy.

 

Nope. Those are your words. I was pointing out that if the dyno sheet is right, and the trap speeds are right, and the fuel economy is right, and the driveability is right, then they are not going to say, "...but what about John's theory of atomization and the fuel droplet fallout ratio?" They don't care because it is obviously not enough of a problem to matter.

John, you have to realize that having our kit is infinitely better than trying to make the same power without additional injectors. Could it be improved? Of course. We could run 4 additional injectors and completely redesign the ECM hardware and programming to control them. Then we could charge thousands of dollars per kit. At that point, no one will buy it because the kit we already sell for $500 does nearly as well as the ideal kit would. Yes, there are minor flaws that we live with, much like all of our cars come with from the factory. We simply don't care because they are nowhere near the level that you would like them to be so that you can defeat ZZP. A "huge design flaw" as you call it would be obviously noticeable. There are no noticeable issues with our kit, so you have over-stated it, plain and simple.