This is so fu*king redneck i love it!! The duct tape just adds that special touch

 

I guess my original point was if he's going to be critical of the current solution, and says it can be done both better and cheaper, then that's fine and I'm totally game to see/buy what he comes up with, but he'd better put his money where his mouth is then or stop blowing smoke.

So far I've just seen a continuation of criticizing ZZP's product, and nothing that would represent the better-cheaper idea he has nor a counter offer of his better-cheaper product/solution.

In this case, I don't really care if I go with ZZP or not, but I'm not seeing any alternatives being constructively pitched here either.

 

If you want the easy way buy zzp's. You can easily tap the intake manifold in a better spot with a better angle. Buy a controller and injector or two and the stuff you need to get the fuel to the injector. Like john said it could be done cheaper and better, but it will take more labor. I'm sure zzp's works just fine and it can't get any easier to install.

 

Doesn't anyone actually read the posts in this forum? This was the 6th post in this thread.

Try venturing outside of this forum guys, it's amazing what you might learn. I openly share my knowledge on 4 other forums, all you have to do is look. I don't share here because most of the kids on here hate me, so why should I help them? I only come on here occasionally to keep guys like Matt and Vince honest. I don't "hate" ZZP as Matt has accused, I just have a problem when I hear BS being spread as gospel truth. Like Vince saying his amazing fuel pump discovery is going to "solve all the fueling issues on the LNF" (his exact quote) or Matt trying to sell shoddy products without anyone asking the right questions. ZZP's 5th injector is a bad design and can be done better and cheaper.

What's happened with Vince's amazing hpfp "discovery"? Turned out to be a bust, just like I said it would be. How about his Speed Density tune? Again, nothing but poorly running LNF's are the result of his latest folly. Am I the only one that questions this stuff? It seems like whatever a few certain vendors put out is just the most amazing thing and nobody questions it. I'm not saying everything they do is garbage, I just don't like it when people blindly follow and get sucked into the hype.

Here's the 5th injector setup I've been running for quite a while now. I actually have a different injector than what's in these pictures since it, and the one ZZP uses is way too big for proper fueling. It's not only about how much fuel is injected while it's under power, it's also how much fuel comes in at first and after the throttle is shut. If Matt actually posted logs of his work, I'd be able to show everyone where the fueling problems are in their tunes. I post logs, I'm not afraid of people seeing what I do and how it actually looks. Novel concept, huh? Anyone ever seen a log from ZZP? Or Vince? lol, that would be funny. Remember, one person's "My car runs great" might be VERY different from another's. Great to one person might be un-drivable to another.

 

Nice welds.

ZZP isn't going to share their best **** with you though, same if you order a mail canned tune. what do you expect?

 

John, with your injector so far forward, how are you certain that runners 1 and 4 are getting close to equal amounts of fuel? I like the angle but it seems so far forward. Why not use that angle but further back near where the evap is?

 

I've seen their "best ****", I know why they don't share it. Same reason Vince doesn't talk about tuning, real tuners would chew him up and spit him out. Reminds me of this quote-

Guys that know deep down they wouldn't stand up to the scrutiny of their peers keep their mouth shut so they won't be exposed for being the inexperienced rookies that they are. Vince and guys like Matt keep quiet about their tuning not because of what they know, but because of what they DON'T know.

 

I guess since im on my cell phone I didn't notice the injector is aimed to spray towards the front of the car, not towards the motor. I assume that is what you're hoping keeps the fuel distribution even.

 

Wow, no smart @ss comment? Thanks, I appreciate it.

It looks like it's angled in a couple of the pictures, but it's actually exactly in line with the throttle body opening. It's a cone shaped injector pattern, and it sprays directly into the incoming airflow before it has a chance to hit any walls (or passages lol). GM had used throttle body injection for 10 or 15 years on hundreds of thousands of cars. The biggest difference between TBI setups and what I've done is the injector sprays towards the airflow instead of with it. I had no choice in that matter. I don't see how you could get the fuel mixed with the incoming air better than having the atomized fuel spraying directly into the airflow without it being near any walls or ports. If you opened the throttle plate, you'd be looking directly at the injector cone. It's a good design and it's VERY easy to do. AND cheaper to build than ZZP's kit.

One of the big selling points of ZZP's kit is you don't have to pull the intake manifold. Well guess what? Pulling the manifold is not only super easy, but a good idea for several reasons. The biggest one is intake valves. Cleaning the crud off the intake valves will definitely make the LNF run better. Every LNF out there has a pile of crud on the intake valves, no matter what the mileage.

Second is when you have the manifold off, you can throw on a set of Werks Phenolic Spacers. They won't double your horse power, but they can't hurt by keeping the intake and throttle body temps cooler.

And finally, who is making the kind of power that would need a 5th injector and hasn't had their intake manifold off a few times already? My point here is doing a 5th injector properly by welding it in a better spot isn't really a big deal. Anyone that can't weld can get an injector mount like this welded on for under $50, prolly more like $20 or a case of beer.

 

Oh okay so the injector is not angled, it just appears so b/c of the photographs. I assume you use a similar controller to ZZPs? What size injector did you go with? I know you said its smaller but I honestly don't see the harm in using a bigger one when you're running E85. The fuel demand on the stock system should be able to be decreased with a little bit larger 5th injector I would assume (I assume b/c I don't know for sure).

Have you had a chance to compare the two designs (this and ZZP's) beyond external and/or theoretical performance? While I can see why your design might be better, I wonder if the difference is negligible...? I actually like that you can just slap ZZP's setup on and if it performs (which it seems it does) there can't be anything wrong with that.

This interests me b/c I am in the boat of needing one of these pretty soon as I'll be running out of fuel with the BNR at the power level I wish to obtain.

P.S.
I only drop smart ass comments when they are deserved.

 

lol, wow. John- you have not seen anywhere close to what we have going on at zzp. You have no idea what projects we are working on.


Another funny line, there. I invited everyone to zzp to listen to me talk about how I tune LNFs and why. You declined, and that's fine. Just don't sit there talking about how I "keep quiet" about my tuning. That is obviously not true.

Nice work on the setup you pictured. Guys that have the ability to do that should certainly consider taking that route. Some value their time more than the money they can save by piecing together their own kit and learning how to tune it. Others support zzp and feel good about purchasing from us so that we can reinvest in the LNF market.

 

Worth every minute of the 6hr round trip even if I didn't understand half of it.

 

I'm using a similar controller as ZZP, a Devil's Own DVC30. Mostly because I already had one installed in my dash when I switched from a meth kit to the injector setup. There are better ways to control an extra injector, but the meth controller is fairly cheap (free since I already had one) and extremely easy to setup. The problems are (which strangely enough, Matt has stayed quiet about, or he's just ignorant to the issues), when the injector first starts to inject, it's hard to keep it from going too rich momentarily. Also when you shut off the throttle, it will want to stay rich for a little bit if the 5th injector is too big. ZZP uses a Siemens 633cc injector in their kit. I've tried their exact setup and logged it quite a bit. I didn't like how the logs looked whatsoever. It's just too big of an injector to control properly with a meth controller, ESPECIALLY when it has to travel through that little bowl and then through a small passage.

My approach was to use a much smaller injector, but I also bumped up the low side fuel pressure. That way the higher pressure/smaller injector atomizes WAY better and is easier to control the start and stop of the injection with a meth controller. Raising the low side fuel pressure also helps feed the hpfp quite a bit better, which is an added side benefit. If my engine wasn't running so d@mn good, the first thing I would do is run an actual injector driver. With the higher fuel pressure and smaller injector, the logs just look really, really good though so if it keeps running like it has been, I'm leaving it alone. That's the best part of the 5th injector setup using a meth controller, it's not perfect, but it's cheap and easy and it works ok. (As long as you use the right sized injector.)

BTW, I'm only a smart @ss on this forum. Some people on here just bring out the worst in me sometimes! I have very low tolerance for ignorance.

 

Stop bringing that up. I was NEVER invited. I still would have declined, but YOU NEVER INVITED ME TO ANYTHING. Get over your failed stunt and don't bring it up to me anymore.

 

Listening.....

 

This may be a stretch but John, would you care to post any screen shots of any important sections of your logs with both setups? And for my sake, please explain what it is we're looking at as we know good and well where it leads when I don't.

 

Now you're asking me to do something that this forum's lord and savior (Matt and the church of ZZP) hasn't even done! When he starts sharing log screen shots and tuning info, maybe I will too. Until that happens, just look elsewhere on the web and other forums where I freely share all of those things. I'd just rather share with guys that are rational adults and can discuss intelligently without creating what Matt enjoys most, "Chaos and Drama". I've been told to "go kill myself" by members here, why on earth would I go out of my way to help guys like that?

 

John:

There is ignorance on every forum.

You have a low tolerance for what you consider to be ignorance. This forum has a low tolerance for your arrogance. That is why you struggle here.

I never said I liked drama and chaos. I said that we will not run and hide from it. We will fight the battle when we need to. If you are going to quote me, you need to start actually noting where the statement comes from. Your mind is so skewed with bias that you end up telling lies even though you belive them to be the truth.

Our injector controller is not the same as yours. It shares the same case and some of the same components, but it is not the same. We made changes specific to the application.

 

Thanks. I wish I had been more prepared. That week kicked my ass with the projects that we had to get finished before the meet. I'm still planning to put together a pdf file with a lot of that type of information included. It's just been a real busy summer so far.

 

Wow, now you're calling me a liar. I am truly amazed at what an incredible @ss you are Matt. You can keep this quote from me... I will never again reply to anything you say or post. You are really just not worth my time.

I hope you're proud of yourself Matt, you are one of THE biggest reasons why I will not help guys out and share my knowledge on this forum. Sorry to all of the lurkers that are reading what I post and learning from it. Your friend Matt has been instrumental in driving away any opposing thoughts to his retarded theories and ideas, and anyone that questions his company's products in any way. What a shame. And to think I was nice enough to keep quiet about another one of your poorly designed products that I witnessed destroying a motor. And I also didn't bother bashing ZZP in public for Jeb's fantastic ZZP motor that drinks a quart of oil every 100 miles. I know, it's nothing your wonderful company did, it's somehow his fault. Wrong. He paid ZZP $6k or $7k for a motor that burns oil like crazy. I'm sorry but your company and your company public image sucks. And that's not a lie.

 

Damn, he must've not broke it in correctly, mine smoked for maybe 500 miles then the rings were seated. Did he even run any pcv lines?

 

Mmmmm.... now this is more like what I'm talking about. That's a really nice IM, and good placement for the injector. Thanks for posting that up. I hadn't seen that before.

I don't have any machine shop access anymore, so I'd have to find a place around here that would be able to help with a setup like that. It does seem pretty straightforward, simple, and reliable though.

 

Yes, John, you lied. You keep saying that I stated something that I never did. I asked several times for you to show me where I said it, but you can't because it is not true.

Jeb openly admitted that his PCV system was messed up when he broke in his motor. All motor builders and tuners know that a poorly functioning PCV system will not allow the rings to seat correcly. It's unfortunate that it happened, though.

ZZPs public image is fine. All successful companies have enemies, so there will always be guys like you trying to convince people otherwise. It doesn't bother me, because I know it comes with the territory.

 

i really do love these threads lol

 

It gets your blood pumping, lol. Especially if you own the product and have tested it yourself.