Anyone add a second stock heat exhanger up front?
07-18-2006, 12:41 PM
#101
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Originally Posted by 06black
Hey Daren...looks good bro!
I've keep thinking about the mounting direstion of the 2nd HE like we talked about so i gave up on thinking and e-mailed my eng proff from school and he basicly told me that sence the entire system is under pressure that its doesnt make a bit of differance as long as the stock pump can handle the extra fluid and resistance in the system that you created...
I think it can.
also i've been trying to get a good pic of a "cut away" of our stock HE to see how all the lines in it are connected and what not like we talked about to see if i can get a final answer on that.
it loks REAL good tho...still stock looking and thats always a good thing!!!
i think the cobra idea like my self and pat have done(and others) stands as the most cost effective way to do this BUT the cobra unit doesnt have the same serface area as stock but its better then nothing!!!
good **** tho....nice to see the next step in keeping our AIT's in check!
I've keep thinking about the mounting direstion of the 2nd HE like we talked about so i gave up on thinking and e-mailed my eng proff from school and he basicly told me that sence the entire system is under pressure that its doesnt make a bit of differance as long as the stock pump can handle the extra fluid and resistance in the system that you created...
I think it can.
also i've been trying to get a good pic of a "cut away" of our stock HE to see how all the lines in it are connected and what not like we talked about to see if i can get a final answer on that.
it loks REAL good tho...still stock looking and thats always a good thing!!!
i think the cobra idea like my self and pat have done(and others) stands as the most cost effective way to do this BUT the cobra unit doesnt have the same serface area as stock but its better then nothing!!!
good **** tho....nice to see the next step in keeping our AIT's in check!
IT'S NOT UNDER PRESSURE!!!!!!!!! What creates pressure in a cooling system???
HEAT!!!! There is not enough heat (normally) in the IC system to build up pressure, hence the low, 5psi rating on the cap.
This is simple stuff guys, don't make it harder than it needs to be!
07-18-2006, 01:59 PM
#102
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Originally Posted by ENUFPWR
It doesn't slide or shake at all.
Temps today outside were 95degrees
IAT1 temps were 98-100degrees
IAT2 temps were 118-120 while going 80 on the highway. Stop at a light and IAT2 temps would climb to 132degrees and stay there.
Two WOT throttle runs from 1st to 4th gear resulted in IAT2 temps going from 118-135 1st to 3rd and top of 3rd before 4th I was at 150.....160-180 was the max I've seen hit so far in the heat beforehand during the passes so the HE dropped 20degrees from before. Going to have to do some more testing, but the heat rise wasn't as drastic as before. This does work
Temps today outside were 95degrees
IAT1 temps were 98-100degrees
IAT2 temps were 118-120 while going 80 on the highway. Stop at a light and IAT2 temps would climb to 132degrees and stay there.
Two WOT throttle runs from 1st to 4th gear resulted in IAT2 temps going from 118-135 1st to 3rd and top of 3rd before 4th I was at 150.....160-180 was the max I've seen hit so far in the heat beforehand during the passes so the HE dropped 20degrees from before. Going to have to do some more testing, but the heat rise wasn't as drastic as before. This does work
Pierre
07-18-2006, 03:05 PM
#103
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Originally Posted by FAST06SS
IT'S NOT UNDER PRESSURE!!!!!!!!! What creates pressure in a cooling system???
HEAT!!!! There is not enough heat (normally) in the IC system to build up pressure, hence the low, 5psi rating on the cap.
This is simple stuff guys, don't make it harder than it needs to be!
HEAT!!!! There is not enough heat (normally) in the IC system to build up pressure, hence the low, 5psi rating on the cap.
This is simple stuff guys, don't make it harder than it needs to be!
IT IS UNDER PRESSURE!!!!!
a pump cause's a pressure differance...thats how it moves fluid thro the system!!!!
your rite...this is SIMPLE STUFF
07-18-2006, 03:11 PM
#104
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Originally Posted by 06black
IT IS UNDER PRESSURE!!!!!
a pump cause's a pressure differance...thats how it moves fluid thro the system!!!!
your rite...this is SIMPLE STUFF
a pump cause's a pressure differance...thats how it moves fluid thro the system!!!!
your rite...this is SIMPLE STUFF
Take your radiator cap off and run your engine, take your IC fill cap off and run your engine, guess what, it doesn't shoot out from pressure! WOW!!
07-18-2006, 03:14 PM
#105
Originally Posted by 06black
IT IS UNDER PRESSURE!!!!!
a pump cause's a pressure differance...thats how it moves fluid thro the system!!!!
your rite...this is SIMPLE STUFF
a pump cause's a pressure differance...thats how it moves fluid thro the system!!!!
your rite...this is SIMPLE STUFF
07-18-2006, 03:23 PM
#106
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Then according to everyone who thinks this system is NOT under pressure, ENUFFPOWER's system does not work, it can't if you guys are right.
If it is not under pressure than how can the coolant flow in and out of the HE with the inlet/outlet at the very top of the HE??? Sorry ENUFFPOWER the results you saw we're incorrect, as your HE cannot work the way you have it installed, bummer huh, damn those fake IAT readings
Seriously people
You were right, it is a simple answer,, Pumps create pressure, that is how they work. Just because the cap can be removed without coolant gushing out does not mean that the system is not pressurized.
Take a look at what happens in the reservoir next time you run your system sans cap. (very bad idea BTW)
Maybe you should study fluid dynamics and physics a little more before you suggest that others return to school
If it is not under pressure than how can the coolant flow in and out of the HE with the inlet/outlet at the very top of the HE??? Sorry ENUFFPOWER the results you saw we're incorrect, as your HE cannot work the way you have it installed, bummer huh, damn those fake IAT readings
Seriously peopleYou were right, it is a simple answer,, Pumps create pressure, that is how they work. Just because the cap can be removed without coolant gushing out does not mean that the system is not pressurized.
Take a look at what happens in the reservoir next time you run your system sans cap. (very bad idea BTW)
Maybe you should study fluid dynamics and physics a little more before you suggest that others return to school
07-18-2006, 04:02 PM
#109
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when something is in an enclosed space and it is heated it expands...since they space is closed...pressure is created...same operating principle as a radiator
07-18-2006, 04:09 PM
#110
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I'm not going to argue over something this stupid and simple!
Dan, you are correct and i agree but the above statements on pumps is total BS!!!!
Look at a service manual on the aux electric heater pumps on the venture vans. The same damm pump we use! It says, NOT a POSITIVE displacement pump!!!
For the pump impaired,
http://www.pumpuniversity.com/
Later
Dan, you are correct and i agree but the above statements on pumps is total BS!!!!
Look at a service manual on the aux electric heater pumps on the venture vans. The same damm pump we use! It says, NOT a POSITIVE displacement pump!!!
For the pump impaired,
http://www.pumpuniversity.com/
Later
07-18-2006, 04:53 PM
#112
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If a pump doesn't change the pressure in a container how does it displace the fluid? If that were the case it would be called a pipe.
We are dealing with two different kinds of people..
Eingineers and technicians...
Technicians look at the pump and see zero pressure so it is a zero pressure pump = non pressurized system.
Engineer looks at a pump and KNOWS it has to change pressure to move fluid. Or anything.
We are dealing with two different kinds of people..
Eingineers and technicians...
Technicians look at the pump and see zero pressure so it is a zero pressure pump = non pressurized system.
Engineer looks at a pump and KNOWS it has to change pressure to move fluid. Or anything.
07-18-2006, 05:08 PM
#113
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I need to take some pictures. My Cobra Heat Exchanger works great when moving. IAT2s are 10-15 degrees above ambient when moving. But sitting is a different story. If the car is still it definitely not as effective. Hopefully having the icebox full of ice will help with that. I tested everything working together and I saw similar results as Daren, about a 30 degree increase in 1-3 acceleration. and NO KNOCK with 94 octane and 21 degrees of timing.
07-18-2006, 05:11 PM
#114
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ok im not sure about this whole system but i do know a little about pumps
a pump does not create pressure when contained within a sealed system becuase as it pulls from one side and pushes to the other all it is doing is circulating the liquid. no pressure is created doing that. if it was pulling from out side the system it would create pressure. but if it is a sealed unit heat will cause the liquid to expand. when something inside a sealed area expands it does create pressure. in this case if the cap say's 5 psi that mean the cap is made to hold 5psi. if it goes over this it will release the amount to get back down to 5psi. it isnt prsssurized by the pump but pressure is created by the expanding liquid. like i said i dont know much about this system
also 06black who ever told you that "the entire system is under pressure that its doesnt make a bit of differance as long as the stock pump can handle the extra fluid and resistance in the system that you created" what they mean is by adding the extra HE its creating a larger surface area and alot more bends in the system the stock pump may not beable to handle the extra work load created by the extra he
a pump does not create pressure when contained within a sealed system becuase as it pulls from one side and pushes to the other all it is doing is circulating the liquid. no pressure is created doing that. if it was pulling from out side the system it would create pressure. but if it is a sealed unit heat will cause the liquid to expand. when something inside a sealed area expands it does create pressure. in this case if the cap say's 5 psi that mean the cap is made to hold 5psi. if it goes over this it will release the amount to get back down to 5psi. it isnt prsssurized by the pump but pressure is created by the expanding liquid. like i said i dont know much about this system
also 06black who ever told you that "the entire system is under pressure that its doesnt make a bit of differance as long as the stock pump can handle the extra fluid and resistance in the system that you created" what they mean is by adding the extra HE its creating a larger surface area and alot more bends in the system the stock pump may not beable to handle the extra work load created by the extra he
07-18-2006, 05:22 PM
#115
Originally Posted by Clmbngfrk18
ok im not sure about this whole system but i do know a little about pumps
a pump does not create pressure when contained within a sealed system becuase as it pulls from one side and pushes to the other all it is doing is circulating the liquid. no pressure is created doing that. if it was pulling from out side the system it would create pressure. but if it is a sealed unit heat will cause the liquid to expand. when something inside a sealed area expands it does create pressure. in this case if the cap say's 5 psi that mean the cap is made to hold 5psi. if it goes over this it will release the amount to get back down to 5psi. it isnt prsssurized by the pump but pressure is created by the expanding liquid. like i said i dont know much about this system
also 06black who ever told you that "the entire system is under pressure that its doesnt make a bit of differance as long as the stock pump can handle the extra fluid and resistance in the system that you created" what they mean is by adding the extra HE its creating a larger surface area and alot more bends in the system the stock pump may not beable to handle the extra work load created by the extra he
a pump does not create pressure when contained within a sealed system becuase as it pulls from one side and pushes to the other all it is doing is circulating the liquid. no pressure is created doing that. if it was pulling from out side the system it would create pressure. but if it is a sealed unit heat will cause the liquid to expand. when something inside a sealed area expands it does create pressure. in this case if the cap say's 5 psi that mean the cap is made to hold 5psi. if it goes over this it will release the amount to get back down to 5psi. it isnt prsssurized by the pump but pressure is created by the expanding liquid. like i said i dont know much about this system
also 06black who ever told you that "the entire system is under pressure that its doesnt make a bit of differance as long as the stock pump can handle the extra fluid and resistance in the system that you created" what they mean is by adding the extra HE its creating a larger surface area and alot more bends in the system the stock pump may not beable to handle the extra work load created by the extra he
07-18-2006, 05:33 PM
#116
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Originally Posted by Clmbngfrk18
ok im not sure about this whole system but i do know a little about pumps
a pump does not create pressure when contained within a sealed system becuase as it pulls from one side and pushes to the other all it is doing is circulating the liquid. no pressure is created doing that. if it was pulling from out side the system it would create pressure. but if it is a sealed unit heat will cause the liquid to expand. when something inside a sealed area expands it does create pressure. in this case if the cap say's 5 psi that mean the cap is made to hold 5psi. if it goes over this it will release the amount to get back down to 5psi. it isnt prsssurized by the pump but pressure is created by the expanding liquid. like i said i dont know much about this system
also 06black who ever told you that "the entire system is under pressure that its doesnt make a bit of differance as long as the stock pump can handle the extra fluid and resistance in the system that you created" what they mean is by adding the extra HE its creating a larger surface area and alot more bends in the system the stock pump may not beable to handle the extra work load created by the extra he
a pump does not create pressure when contained within a sealed system becuase as it pulls from one side and pushes to the other all it is doing is circulating the liquid. no pressure is created doing that. if it was pulling from out side the system it would create pressure. but if it is a sealed unit heat will cause the liquid to expand. when something inside a sealed area expands it does create pressure. in this case if the cap say's 5 psi that mean the cap is made to hold 5psi. if it goes over this it will release the amount to get back down to 5psi. it isnt prsssurized by the pump but pressure is created by the expanding liquid. like i said i dont know much about this system
also 06black who ever told you that "the entire system is under pressure that its doesnt make a bit of differance as long as the stock pump can handle the extra fluid and resistance in the system that you created" what they mean is by adding the extra HE its creating a larger surface area and alot more bends in the system the stock pump may not beable to handle the extra work load created by the extra he
ok now that i will beleve.
good info.
sry for the miss understanding
07-18-2006, 06:47 PM
#117
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Hummm.... Well first off this was Rob's idea... not my system. I can't take credit for designing this or experimenting with it. All the credit goes to FAST06SS. After he tested it out on his own car he sent me the same setup. We both are seeing similar results.
Pressure OR FLOW..... hummm Does it really matter..??
The system intercooler pump is flowing or pumping the fluid. With this setup I have I don't see that big of restriction that the pump won't be able to handle the extra flow. The stock fans adjusted with the help of HPtuners help create enough flow through the heat exchanger fins to cool it. Yes, maybe since I have the fans cranked up a bit via hptuners that helps the cooling effect also with regards to adding a second heat exchanger in series. My stock radiator temps are held pretty consistent at 180degrees on hot days and at the track I see 190 maybe but the fans kick on and bring that back to the 180's very quick. By using this setup the way I have it, you don't need to purchase another set of aftermarket fans to cool the heat exchanger like you would have to a cobra one if you mounted it away on the front bumper support.
The system flows coolant/water for its air to water after cooler system. Heck, the GrandAM Cup cars used a similar setup when they replaced the stock heat exchanger with a more effective Griffin after cooler radiator for just that purpose in the front just like this setup.
After looking at how the stock after cooler heat exchanger flows this is what I came up with. It looks like it is separated in the middle about halfway, so my understanding is the flow goes in one side of the hose....flows upward though the fins then transfers on top to the other side of the heat exchanger and flows downward and exits out the other side hose. So we have and upward flow and then a downward flow. By mounting the HE upside down would make no difference just the fact that it will flow downward first then upward last. The way I have this setup is pretty simple. I have a 4 inch piece of hose directly going from Laminova heat exchanger built into the manifold directly to the second stock heat exchanger on top. NO BENDS.... straight 4inch piece of hose. (Don't see much of a restriction there). I took the stock piece of hose with the bends and used it for the other side. The flow is pushed downward through half the heat exchanger then flows to the other side of the heat exchanger then upward and out to a hose where there is the stock bent hose that I replaced with an extension that flows straight into the 5psi reservoir. From here the system flows downward into the stock heat exchanger which it flows upward then downward and to intercooler water pump then into the intake manifold where the air to water intercooler is (Laminova heat exchanger).
Anyways... Today it was cooler outside 88-90degrees and my IAT2 temps stayed at 114-116degrees while cruising on the highway at 80mph. When I would make a 1-4rth gear pass from a light my temps would go up to 140's and slowly creep to 150's only when I would slow down to a stop after that pass. So I'm convinced that adding a 2nd heat exchanger in series be it a cobra one or stock one helps a ton.
Pressure OR FLOW..... hummm Does it really matter..??
The system intercooler pump is flowing or pumping the fluid. With this setup I have I don't see that big of restriction that the pump won't be able to handle the extra flow. The stock fans adjusted with the help of HPtuners help create enough flow through the heat exchanger fins to cool it. Yes, maybe since I have the fans cranked up a bit via hptuners that helps the cooling effect also with regards to adding a second heat exchanger in series. My stock radiator temps are held pretty consistent at 180degrees on hot days and at the track I see 190 maybe but the fans kick on and bring that back to the 180's very quick. By using this setup the way I have it, you don't need to purchase another set of aftermarket fans to cool the heat exchanger like you would have to a cobra one if you mounted it away on the front bumper support.
The system flows coolant/water for its air to water after cooler system. Heck, the GrandAM Cup cars used a similar setup when they replaced the stock heat exchanger with a more effective Griffin after cooler radiator for just that purpose in the front just like this setup.
After looking at how the stock after cooler heat exchanger flows this is what I came up with. It looks like it is separated in the middle about halfway, so my understanding is the flow goes in one side of the hose....flows upward though the fins then transfers on top to the other side of the heat exchanger and flows downward and exits out the other side hose. So we have and upward flow and then a downward flow. By mounting the HE upside down would make no difference just the fact that it will flow downward first then upward last. The way I have this setup is pretty simple. I have a 4 inch piece of hose directly going from Laminova heat exchanger built into the manifold directly to the second stock heat exchanger on top. NO BENDS.... straight 4inch piece of hose. (Don't see much of a restriction there). I took the stock piece of hose with the bends and used it for the other side. The flow is pushed downward through half the heat exchanger then flows to the other side of the heat exchanger then upward and out to a hose where there is the stock bent hose that I replaced with an extension that flows straight into the 5psi reservoir. From here the system flows downward into the stock heat exchanger which it flows upward then downward and to intercooler water pump then into the intake manifold where the air to water intercooler is (Laminova heat exchanger).
Anyways... Today it was cooler outside 88-90degrees and my IAT2 temps stayed at 114-116degrees while cruising on the highway at 80mph. When I would make a 1-4rth gear pass from a light my temps would go up to 140's and slowly creep to 150's only when I would slow down to a stop after that pass. So I'm convinced that adding a 2nd heat exchanger in series be it a cobra one or stock one helps a ton.
07-18-2006, 06:51 PM
#118
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Originally Posted by patathSS
I need to take some pictures. My Cobra Heat Exchanger works great when moving. IAT2s are 10-15 degrees above ambient when moving. But sitting is a different story. If the car is still it definitely not as effective. Hopefully having the icebox full of ice will help with that. I tested everything working together and I saw similar results as Daren, about a 30 degree increase in 1-3 acceleration. and NO KNOCK with 94 octane and 21 degrees of timing.
07-18-2006, 07:05 PM
#119
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LFP Extreme Coba HE arrived today!!!
https://www.cobaltss.net/gallery/bro...=3&userid=5323
Here are 3 pics of it...looks really good, leaving work early to go make brackets for it and then shipping everything back to LFP to have them work on fabricating this and selling it out to everyone!!!
Here are 3 pics of it...looks really good, leaving work early to go make brackets for it and then shipping everything back to LFP to have them work on fabricating this and selling it out to everyone!!!
07-18-2006, 07:05 PM
#120
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anyone ever consider hooking the HE in Parrallel, it would mean the that there is no increase in pressure requirement ( no matter how you look at it, there is added stress, because the fluid no has to travel up and down the HE twice instead of one. but maybe the pump is still OK), but the major gain would be that the flow throu the HE's would be reduced by half meaning twice the amount of time in the HE to cool, which is not necessarly the case when connected in series.
basically set them identically, but split the inlets and outlets to the two HE's
just a thought. I may be wrong in my thinking, but from what I remember from my HVAC courses. I'm pretty sure I'm not.
basically set them identically, but split the inlets and outlets to the two HE's
just a thought. I may be wrong in my thinking, but from what I remember from my HVAC courses. I'm pretty sure I'm not.
07-18-2006, 07:09 PM
#121
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Originally Posted by vandy0419
https://www.cobaltss.net/gallery/bro...=3&userid=5323
Here are 3 pics of it...looks really good, leaving work early to go make brackets for it and then shipping everything back to LFP to have them work on fabricating this and selling it out to everyone!!!
Here are 3 pics of it...looks really good, leaving work early to go make brackets for it and then shipping everything back to LFP to have them work on fabricating this and selling it out to everyone!!!
Looks awesome!!!! I bet those cobra fans would help out a ton with that setup.
07-18-2006, 07:11 PM
#122
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Originally Posted by ENUFPWR
Looks awesome!!!! I bet those fans would help out a ton with that setup.
07-19-2006, 06:42 PM
#125
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Here are some more results on a colld night.
Last nights results:
Outside temp 77degrees
IAT1 81degrees
IAT2 98degrees
While driving light to light normal traffic.
Let standing in a parking lot for 10 minutes at idle....
IAT1 82
IAT2 109
Coolant temp 181degrees steady...
Highway driving home.....
IAT1 82 degrees
IAT2 99-101 at 80 mph
1st through 4th gear acceleration from a dead stop on the highway....
IAT1 82 then slight rise to 83
IAT2 temps 99-130 first 3 gears
4th gear....143-145 max at 125mph before shutting down.
costing to 60mph temp rise to 150 then cool as soon as I give it throttle.....beack to 109 then going 80 IAT2 temps stabalize at 100
Damn... this I never did see sup 100 IAT2 temps before...so I'm more then happy with this setup. I haven't even put on the extra coolant tank or an ice box. Not sure if I have to anymore..
Last nights results:
Outside temp 77degrees
IAT1 81degrees
IAT2 98degrees
While driving light to light normal traffic.
Let standing in a parking lot for 10 minutes at idle....
IAT1 82
IAT2 109
Coolant temp 181degrees steady...
Highway driving home.....
IAT1 82 degrees
IAT2 99-101 at 80 mph
1st through 4th gear acceleration from a dead stop on the highway....
IAT1 82 then slight rise to 83
IAT2 temps 99-130 first 3 gears
4th gear....143-145 max at 125mph before shutting down.
costing to 60mph temp rise to 150 then cool as soon as I give it throttle.....beack to 109 then going 80 IAT2 temps stabalize at 100
Damn... this I never did see sup 100 IAT2 temps before...so I'm more then happy with this setup. I haven't even put on the extra coolant tank or an ice box.
Not sure if I have to anymore..