bates sleeved blocks
11-07-2011, 10:13 AM
#52
i guess so, ive read the thread they posted. but got lost in it and couldnt keep up haha. i have talked to them awhile ago about it. and id have to go through them for the girdle...which is fine with me. i dont see where all the other stuff goes, i know machining is pricey, but they call it affordable. i guess my definition of affordable is less than zzp definition.
We'll have this on the site again shortly.
11-07-2011, 10:40 AM
#53
My point is that a block has to have something done or the sleeves will crack. Currently that's either Darton which makes other parts of the block less reliable or ZZP engine girdle. The engine girdle is less expensive than the sleeves no matter what. People just compare apples and oranges when looking at our motor. You can't compare the price of an entire engine build to the price of a a single upgrade to your existing build.
We'll have this on the site again shortly.
We'll have this on the site again shortly.
11-07-2011, 01:28 PM
#56
Bates was also selling budget "Ecotec race Blocks" which were sleeved L61 blocks to LSJ owners as a bolt in solution. That caused Phil a year of headaches and thousands of dollars.
Right. A ZZP "girdle" bare block would need to cost less then a sleeved Bates or Darton block or people are still going to go with the sleeved option.
Right. A ZZP "girdle" bare block would need to cost less then a sleeved Bates or Darton block or people are still going to go with the sleeved option.
11-07-2011, 01:33 PM
#57
Bates was also selling budget "Ecotec race Blocks" which were sleeved L61 blocks to LSJ owners as a bolt in solution. That caused Phil a year of headaches and thousands of dollars.
Right. A ZZP "girdle" bare block would need to cost less then a sleeved Bates or Darton block or people are still going to go with the sleeved option.
Right. A ZZP "girdle" bare block would need to cost less then a sleeved Bates or Darton block or people are still going to go with the sleeved option.
11-07-2011, 01:59 PM
#58
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Ive seen quite a few build threads with people using dartons and bates sleeves, but who of them has really pushed there engine to say 500hp? They only person ive seen with zzp engine is exsoccer
11-07-2011, 03:27 PM
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Of course ZZ Performance would knock our product because he is trying to sell his own. Little history on the Ecotec kit. The Ecotec 2.2L kit was the first wet sleeve kit we made. These were originally designed for John Lingenfelter when he raced the Cobalt. He would have never been able to run the times he did if the kit weakened the block. The Ecotec kit has been available for about 10 years. Would we have been able to sell them for this long if they did not work?
As for cracking the block. All the MID wet sleeves remove that much material from the block. But this is not a factor if installed correctly. The only way the block cracks is from incorrect installation. There is more than enough material in the block to support the sleeves. Pressing the sleeves in will crack the block but the sleeves are installed with clearance and a press.
If the MID style sleeves remove too much material then how was Aeromotive able to break the record for fasted MOD dragster or how was AMS able to have the fastest GTR and first to run 8's. How did Vinny Ten run a 6.61 quater mile in the Performance Motorsports 350z? This past weekend Avid Racing ran a 8.97 pass with his K20 block in Sport FWD trim? Why does Roush use our kits in thier drag cars? Kpax Racing would not have been able to win the championship in WCC without using our kit. One of our drag cars which is a Honda has over 300 passes on it before we tore it down just to change pistons and those blocks are thinner than the Ecotec between the cylinders.
The issue people have with our kits is incorrect installation. We would not be able to have over 40 different applications for the MID sleeve is it reomoved to much material. Poeple bash the kit due to lack of experience or because their product isnt good enough to stand on their own, they need to bash ours to try and make theirs look better.
As for cracking the block. All the MID wet sleeves remove that much material from the block. But this is not a factor if installed correctly. The only way the block cracks is from incorrect installation. There is more than enough material in the block to support the sleeves. Pressing the sleeves in will crack the block but the sleeves are installed with clearance and a press.
If the MID style sleeves remove too much material then how was Aeromotive able to break the record for fasted MOD dragster or how was AMS able to have the fastest GTR and first to run 8's. How did Vinny Ten run a 6.61 quater mile in the Performance Motorsports 350z? This past weekend Avid Racing ran a 8.97 pass with his K20 block in Sport FWD trim? Why does Roush use our kits in thier drag cars? Kpax Racing would not have been able to win the championship in WCC without using our kit. One of our drag cars which is a Honda has over 300 passes on it before we tore it down just to change pistons and those blocks are thinner than the Ecotec between the cylinders.
The issue people have with our kits is incorrect installation. We would not be able to have over 40 different applications for the MID sleeve is it reomoved to much material. Poeple bash the kit due to lack of experience or because their product isnt good enough to stand on their own, they need to bash ours to try and make theirs look better.
11-07-2011, 03:44 PM
#61
Of course ZZ Performance would knock our product because he is trying to sell his own. Little history on the Ecotec kit. The Ecotec 2.2L kit was the first wet sleeve kit we made. These were originally designed for John Lingenfelter when he raced the Cobalt. He would have never been able to run the times he did if the kit weakened the block. The Ecotec kit has been available for about 10 years. Would we have been able to sell them for this long if they did not work?
As for cracking the block. All the MID wet sleeves remove that much material from the block. But this is not a factor if installed correctly. The only way the block cracks is from incorrect installation. There is more than enough material in the block to support the sleeves. Pressing the sleeves in will crack the block but the sleeves are installed with clearance and a press.
If the MID style sleeves remove too much material then how was Aeromotive able to break the record for fasted MOD dragster or how was AMS able to have the fastest GTR and first to run 8's. How did Vinny Ten run a 6.61 quater mile in the Performance Motorsports 350z? This past weekend Avid Racing ran a 8.97 pass with his K20 block in Sport FWD trim? Why does Roush use our kits in thier drag cars? Kpax Racing would not have been able to win the championship in WCC without using our kit. One of our drag cars which is a Honda has over 300 passes on it before we tore it down just to change pistons and those blocks are thinner than the Ecotec between the cylinders.
The issue people have with our kits is incorrect installation. We would not be able to have over 40 different applications for the MID sleeve is it reomoved to much material. Poeple bash the kit due to lack of experience or because their product isnt good enough to stand on their own, they need to bash ours to try and make theirs look better.
As for cracking the block. All the MID wet sleeves remove that much material from the block. But this is not a factor if installed correctly. The only way the block cracks is from incorrect installation. There is more than enough material in the block to support the sleeves. Pressing the sleeves in will crack the block but the sleeves are installed with clearance and a press.
If the MID style sleeves remove too much material then how was Aeromotive able to break the record for fasted MOD dragster or how was AMS able to have the fastest GTR and first to run 8's. How did Vinny Ten run a 6.61 quater mile in the Performance Motorsports 350z? This past weekend Avid Racing ran a 8.97 pass with his K20 block in Sport FWD trim? Why does Roush use our kits in thier drag cars? Kpax Racing would not have been able to win the championship in WCC without using our kit. One of our drag cars which is a Honda has over 300 passes on it before we tore it down just to change pistons and those blocks are thinner than the Ecotec between the cylinders.
The issue people have with our kits is incorrect installation. We would not be able to have over 40 different applications for the MID sleeve is it reomoved to much material. Poeple bash the kit due to lack of experience or because their product isnt good enough to stand on their own, they need to bash ours to try and make theirs look better.
Comparing a 350Z or GTR to an Ecotec is pointless. Those blocks don't suffer from the same issues as the Ecotec.
If you look at the pictures and understand them, the Ecotec block does not have much material holding it together. Installing these sleeves weakens the already average block considerably. This is why GM and other high HP people were splitting them in 1/2 and had to stud them all the way through. You can see exactly where they split and it's where you have to machine away material to install sleeves. Furthermore the Gen 2 block moves the sleeve support down and changes diameter of supported areas. A Darton sleeved Gen 2 block is going to fail quickly. Much quicker than a sleeved Gen 1 block. I have it pictured because we are Ecotec specialists and do destructive testing and tech articles to educate our consumers rather than just selling it and letting customers figure out how things are working.
ZZP does the Ecotec motor. That's it. We have a team who did the 3800 and it's a stable platform we moved development away from years ago. Mr. Darton, you have shown your ignorance to this discussion by bringing in other motors. Every motor made has unique problems and failure points and the optimum solution will be unique for each motor. You believe every motor needs sleeves because that's what you sell. You even site a bunch of other platforms running fast with your product as somehow proof that this market needs them. Ignorance and inexperience. ZZP is not in all of your markets telling everyone sleeving blocks is bad and girdling is the way to go. I wouldn't be so arrogant to believe I was an expert with every motor. ZZP has the experience and track record to know what is best for the Ecotec and we offer a BETTER solution at a lower price than sleeving the block. If sleeving was a better option, we'd offer that. We're interested in making HP and the best products for this market. We are not limited to one product that we tell every market they need and then whine and complain when a vendor isn't pushing it as the best solution.
Finally, whether it's install error or not; there are a TON of guys in this market with failed sleeved blocks. That's just a fact. Keep touting install error if you want but why take the chance with a product that isn't needed, costs more and has an extremely high rate of 'install error'?
-------------
ZZP has done 16 girdled blocks and so far we have a zero failure rate with sleeves, piston skirts, rings, etc. Anything related to cylinder bore.
We have the highest HP engines on the forums running our stuff and the highest HP street car test done. 898WHP in a car that still drives on the street and can run pump gas with parts we sell.
Sleeved blocks on this forum have a VERY high failure rate. I never blamed it on the sleeves or the Darton brand. In fact, I stated that going this route it's pretty much mandatory to have Darton or an experienced shop with a proven track record doing them. 16 and 0 is pretty impressive. One of them is in a car where we replaced a Darton sleeved block that cracked. So while it's possible to have good success sleeving this motor, why would you? It's less money, more reliable, comes with a real warranty, and will ultimately handle more power going the ZZP route. Haven't we seen enough 'failed build' or people giving up after a year of updates threads? Time to start making power and stop wrenching, time to go ZZP!
Last edited by Zooomer; 11-07-2011 at 08:09 PM.
11-07-2011, 04:52 PM
#62
which brings us to the question of the day. How much is just a girdled short block gonna run when you guys decide to release them? im sure many guys would jump on it. Especially if they sent you their pistons and had a fully asembled shortblock ready to go
11-07-2011, 06:08 PM
#65
I'm not bashing the product. A lot of people make sleeves. Clearly you didn't read or don't understand my post. The application and use is the problem, not the product itself.
Comparing a 350Z or GTR to an Ecotec is pointless. Those blocks don't suffer from the same issues as the Ecotec.
If you look at the pictures and understand them, the Ecotec block does not have much material holding it together. Installing these sleeves weakens the already average block considerably. This is why GM and other high HP people were splitting them in 1/2 and had to stud them all the way through. You can see exactly where they split and it's where you have to machine away material to install sleeves. Furthermore the Gen 2 block moves the sleeve support down and changes diameter of supported areas. A Darton sleeved Gen 2 block is going to fail quickly. Much quicker than a sleeved Gen 1 block. I have it pictured because we are Ecotec specialists and do destructive testing and tech articles to educate our consumers rather than just selling it and lettings customers figure out how things are working.
ZZP does the Ecotec motor. That's it. We have a team who did the 3800 and it's a stable platform we moved development away from years ago. Mr. Darton, you have shown your ignorance to this discussion by bringing in other motors. Every motor made has unique problems and failure points and the optimum solution will be unique for each motor. You believe every motor needs sleeves because that's what you sell. You even site a bunch of other platforms running fast with your product as somehow proof that this market needs them. Ignorance and inexperience. ZZP is not in all of your markets telling everyone sleeving blocks is bad and girdling is the way to go. I wouldn't be so arrogant to believe I was an expert with every motor. ZZP has the experience and track record to know what is best for the Ecotec and we offer a BETTER solution at a lower price than sleeving the block. If sleeving was a better option, we'd offer that. We're interested in making HP and the best products for this market. We are not limited to one product that we tell every market they need and then whine and complain when a vendor isn't pushing it as the best solution.
Finally, whether it's install error or not; there are a TON of guys in this market with failed sleeved blocks. That's just a fact. Keep touting install error if you want but why take the chance with a product that isn't needed, costs more and has an extremely high rate of 'install error'?
-------------
ZZP has done 16 girdled blocks and so far we have a zero failure rate with sleeves, piston skirts, rings, etc. Anything related to cylinder bore.
We have the highest HP engines on the forums running our stuff and the highest HP street car test done. 898WHP in a car that still drives on the street and can run pump gas with parts we sell.
Sleeved blocks on this forum have a VERY high failure rate. I never blamed it on the sleeves or the Darton brand. In fact, I stated that going this route it's pretty much mandatory to have Darton or an experienced shop with a proven track record doing them. 16 and 0 is pretty impressive. One of them is in a car where we replaced a Darton sleeved block that cracked. So while it's possible to have good success sleeving this motor, why would you? It's less money, more reliable, comes with a real warranty, and will ultimately handle more power going the ZZP route. Haven't we seen enough 'failed build' or people giving up after a year of updates threads? Time to start making power and stop wrenching, time to go ZZP!
Comparing a 350Z or GTR to an Ecotec is pointless. Those blocks don't suffer from the same issues as the Ecotec.
If you look at the pictures and understand them, the Ecotec block does not have much material holding it together. Installing these sleeves weakens the already average block considerably. This is why GM and other high HP people were splitting them in 1/2 and had to stud them all the way through. You can see exactly where they split and it's where you have to machine away material to install sleeves. Furthermore the Gen 2 block moves the sleeve support down and changes diameter of supported areas. A Darton sleeved Gen 2 block is going to fail quickly. Much quicker than a sleeved Gen 1 block. I have it pictured because we are Ecotec specialists and do destructive testing and tech articles to educate our consumers rather than just selling it and lettings customers figure out how things are working.
ZZP does the Ecotec motor. That's it. We have a team who did the 3800 and it's a stable platform we moved development away from years ago. Mr. Darton, you have shown your ignorance to this discussion by bringing in other motors. Every motor made has unique problems and failure points and the optimum solution will be unique for each motor. You believe every motor needs sleeves because that's what you sell. You even site a bunch of other platforms running fast with your product as somehow proof that this market needs them. Ignorance and inexperience. ZZP is not in all of your markets telling everyone sleeving blocks is bad and girdling is the way to go. I wouldn't be so arrogant to believe I was an expert with every motor. ZZP has the experience and track record to know what is best for the Ecotec and we offer a BETTER solution at a lower price than sleeving the block. If sleeving was a better option, we'd offer that. We're interested in making HP and the best products for this market. We are not limited to one product that we tell every market they need and then whine and complain when a vendor isn't pushing it as the best solution.
Finally, whether it's install error or not; there are a TON of guys in this market with failed sleeved blocks. That's just a fact. Keep touting install error if you want but why take the chance with a product that isn't needed, costs more and has an extremely high rate of 'install error'?
-------------
ZZP has done 16 girdled blocks and so far we have a zero failure rate with sleeves, piston skirts, rings, etc. Anything related to cylinder bore.
We have the highest HP engines on the forums running our stuff and the highest HP street car test done. 898WHP in a car that still drives on the street and can run pump gas with parts we sell.
Sleeved blocks on this forum have a VERY high failure rate. I never blamed it on the sleeves or the Darton brand. In fact, I stated that going this route it's pretty much mandatory to have Darton or an experienced shop with a proven track record doing them. 16 and 0 is pretty impressive. One of them is in a car where we replaced a Darton sleeved block that cracked. So while it's possible to have good success sleeving this motor, why would you? It's less money, more reliable, comes with a real warranty, and will ultimately handle more power going the ZZP route. Haven't we seen enough 'failed build' or people giving up after a year of updates threads? Time to start making power and stop wrenching, time to go ZZP!
11-07-2011, 06:17 PM
#66
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i know 500 isnt pushing it with the sleeves. im just saying i do see alot of build, but no dynos...stuff like that. if i sleeved my block, or got the girdle block from zzp...id turn my boost waaay up.
