F35 or not?
05-12-2009, 05:18 PM
#51
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So what does this all mean? If both your tires get similar traction then you shouldnt get the one wheel peel. In an non LSD transmission both tires should peel out with the exact same amount of torque. If your getting one wheel peels, then both your wheels arent getting the same amount of traction.
Here is another one..
So basically in drag racing terms a limited slip differential is only helpful when traction is an issue. If your tires are good and you setup is solid, you should be able to launch the car without much wheel spin, thus negating the need for a LSD.
Last edited by ShortStack; 05-12-2009 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
05-12-2009, 05:20 PM
#53
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This might confuse people cause they see cars spinning one tire in the snow, well yes it may appear the one wheel is getting more power, in reality its getting the same amount of power as the other wheel, just the power is so weak, it cant cause the other tire to move/spin.
A tranny without Positraction and a tranny With an Open Diff are completely different.
Last edited by ShortStack; 05-12-2009 at 05:21 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
05-12-2009, 05:23 PM
#55
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But your thinking since it doesnt have an lsd, then just one tire spins.
We still have a differential. It is just not "limited-slip". If we didnt have a Differential, then just one wheel would spin.
Ours is just "open".. which means that the wheel with the least amount of traction gets the power. The "limited-sip" also spins both wheels, but will transfer power to the wheel with the most traction.
We still have a differential. It is just not "limited-slip". If we didnt have a Differential, then just one wheel would spin.
Ours is just "open".. which means that the wheel with the least amount of traction gets the power. The "limited-sip" also spins both wheels, but will transfer power to the wheel with the most traction.
05-12-2009, 05:27 PM
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The open differential always applies the same amount of torque to each wheel. There are two factors that determine how much torque can be applied to the wheels: equipment and traction. In dry conditions, when there is plenty of traction, the amount of torque applied to the wheels is limited by the engine and gearing; in a low traction situation, such as when driving on ice, the amount of torque is limited to the greatest amount that will not cause a wheel to slip under those conditions.
05-12-2009, 05:29 PM
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05-12-2009, 05:33 PM
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You read my post wrong..
It says that on the track, both wheels will be getting the same amount of traction. Which means that both wheels are not going to spin freely. Which means there isnt going to be a difference between the lsd or the open Diff. Because two wheels spin with either one.
It says that on the track, both wheels will be getting the same amount of traction. Which means that both wheels are not going to spin freely. Which means there isnt going to be a difference between the lsd or the open Diff. Because two wheels spin with either one.
05-12-2009, 05:58 PM
#67
What about at a red light? With cars sitting there dropping oil on the road or if the road is lightly wet. I could see how an LSD would help if you're taking off/launching in a straight line in that case. If you're hooking them both up on a prepped track though (even with DRs or slicks), then yeah, I don't see any difference.
An LSD on a course seems pretty straightforward.
Just making another point. I think both of y'all are making good points. It seems to me that an LSD is pointless vs. an open unless you're in a low-traction environment, such as a hard turn and weight being off the inside wheel(s), or in inclimate weather/unusual surfaces.
An LSD on a course seems pretty straightforward.
Just making another point. I think both of y'all are making good points. It seems to me that an LSD is pointless vs. an open unless you're in a low-traction environment, such as a hard turn and weight being off the inside wheel(s), or in inclimate weather/unusual surfaces.
05-12-2009, 06:14 PM
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What about at a red light? With cars sitting there dropping oil on the road or if the road is lightly wet. I could see how an LSD would help if you're taking off/launching in a straight line in that case. If you're hooking them both up on a prepped track though (even with DRs or slicks), then yeah, I don't see any difference.
An LSD on a course seems pretty straightforward.
Just making another point. I think both of y'all are making good points. It seems to me that an LSD is pointless vs. an open unless you're in a low-traction environment, such as a hard turn and weight being off the inside wheel(s), or in inclimate weather/unusual surfaces.
An LSD on a course seems pretty straightforward.
Just making another point. I think both of y'all are making good points. It seems to me that an LSD is pointless vs. an open unless you're in a low-traction environment, such as a hard turn and weight being off the inside wheel(s), or in inclimate weather/unusual surfaces.
05-12-2009, 07:02 PM
#70
05-12-2009, 07:07 PM
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yes definatly it helps alot at the track end/
Begin\ i have done it with a diffrent car and it defiatly took a whie lol... ive changed this clutch and it was quite a pain for my first time but i would say its worth it all and all( dont get a cheap 1 or u will be replacing it soon over again)
Begin\ i have done it with a diffrent car and it defiatly took a whie lol... ive changed this clutch and it was quite a pain for my first time but i would say its worth it all and all( dont get a cheap 1 or u will be replacing it soon over again)
05-12-2009, 07:13 PM
#73
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when id stomp on my 3.5L maxima, that thing would ROOOAST 1 tire occasionally, only rarely would it burn two equally, any road imperfections Low speed WOT, and all the power goes to the tire with lesser grip....
05-12-2009, 08:04 PM
#74
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A non-LSD equipped Cobalt can put power down equally to both wheels in a straight line, but if conditions aren't perfect and one wheel starts to spin it will go up in smoke and there's not much you can do about it. If you take the time to corner balance the car to provide equal weight on each driven wheel, provide enough traction (i.e. good tires), and do things like minimize axle hop/movement via bushings and engine mounts, then combined with drivetrain, chassis design and suspension geometry characteristics intended to best put power to the pavement and you could have a car that does okay on an open diff.
One of the big problems with drag racing a transaxle with an open diff is what happens should all your work to maximize traction and minimize spinning goes out the window. Say you're running slicks and there's a bit of dirt on the starting line of your track. One will starts to spin early, power gets transferred to that wheel, and if the differential isn't robust enough they have a tendency to grenade and send the massively overtaxed pinion and spider gears out the side of the case.
To summarize, you can drag race an open diff car car but it will be easier to drag race one with a limited slip diff. It increases the chance of putting power down evenly should available traction under both wheels or other factors conspire against you.
As to the "LSD" in the G85-equipped Cobalts, it's not technically a "limited slip" differential. I'm sure one of the countless links already posted went over the different types, but the Torsen/Quaife-style helical gear differentials are "torque biasing" differentials. They do not operate like a "locker" or conventional "positraction" unit and don't have clutched mechanisms. If you took a Cobalt equipped with the factory limited-slip diff and put one wheel on solid ice and one on pavement it would actually spin the wheel on ice just like an open diff because the gear-biasing diffs need some traction at both wheels in order to bias torque evenly.
That can be an advantage to a clutch type diff if you were off-roading or racing a road course with drastically different types of surfaces or if one of your driven wheels likes to lift off the ground during cornering at high speeds. Then again if you're racing on pavement where there will always be some traction the gear-biasing diff will generally be smoother in power delivery. It's all a matter of preference and what you intend to do with a car. (And as a side note, if you ever find yourself in a split-mu traction condition in a G85 equipped Cobalt where one wheel has no traction and the other wheel is spinning, all you need to do is gently press the brakes while accelerating. The friction of the brakes will usually provide enough resistance for the diff to be able to bias torque to both wheels. Either that or just turn the traction control back on and let it do it for you.
)
Summary:
--> Road course, open roads, tracks that involve turns = limited slip always better*.
--> Drag race = stock open diff might be just as good if everything is perfect...
...but why accept "might" be good "sometimes" when you can get an advantage of being able to "always" put power down better.
*- but which type of those differential will depend on type of driving/conditions.
One of the big problems with drag racing a transaxle with an open diff is what happens should all your work to maximize traction and minimize spinning goes out the window. Say you're running slicks and there's a bit of dirt on the starting line of your track. One will starts to spin early, power gets transferred to that wheel, and if the differential isn't robust enough they have a tendency to grenade and send the massively overtaxed pinion and spider gears out the side of the case.
To summarize, you can drag race an open diff car car but it will be easier to drag race one with a limited slip diff. It increases the chance of putting power down evenly should available traction under both wheels or other factors conspire against you.
As to the "LSD" in the G85-equipped Cobalts, it's not technically a "limited slip" differential. I'm sure one of the countless links already posted went over the different types, but the Torsen/Quaife-style helical gear differentials are "torque biasing" differentials. They do not operate like a "locker" or conventional "positraction" unit and don't have clutched mechanisms. If you took a Cobalt equipped with the factory limited-slip diff and put one wheel on solid ice and one on pavement it would actually spin the wheel on ice just like an open diff because the gear-biasing diffs need some traction at both wheels in order to bias torque evenly.
That can be an advantage to a clutch type diff if you were off-roading or racing a road course with drastically different types of surfaces or if one of your driven wheels likes to lift off the ground during cornering at high speeds. Then again if you're racing on pavement where there will always be some traction the gear-biasing diff will generally be smoother in power delivery. It's all a matter of preference and what you intend to do with a car. (And as a side note, if you ever find yourself in a split-mu traction condition in a G85 equipped Cobalt where one wheel has no traction and the other wheel is spinning, all you need to do is gently press the brakes while accelerating. The friction of the brakes will usually provide enough resistance for the diff to be able to bias torque to both wheels. Either that or just turn the traction control back on and let it do it for you.
)Summary:
--> Road course, open roads, tracks that involve turns = limited slip always better*.
--> Drag race = stock open diff might be just as good if everything is perfect...
...but why accept "might" be good "sometimes" when you can get an advantage of being able to "always" put power down better.
*- but which type of those differential will depend on type of driving/conditions.
05-12-2009, 08:10 PM
#75
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A non-LSD equipped Cobalt can put power down equally to both wheels in a straight line, but if conditions aren't perfect and one wheel starts to spin it will go up in smoke and there's not much you can do about it. If you take the time to corner balance the car to provide equal weight on each driven wheel, provide enough traction (i.e. good tires), and do things like minimize axle hop/movement via bushings and engine mounts, then combined with drivetrain, chassis design and suspension geometry characteristics intended to best put power to the pavement and you could have a car that does okay on an open diff.
One of the big problems with drag racing a transaxle with an open diff is what happens should all your work to maximize traction and minimize spinning goes out the window. Say you're running slicks and there's a bit of dirt on the starting line of your track. One will starts to spin early, power gets transferred to that wheel, and if the differential isn't robust enough they have a tendency to grenade and send the massively overtaxed pinion and spider gears out the side of the case.
To summarize, you can drag race an open diff car car but it will be easier to drag race one with a limited slip diff. It increases the chance of putting power down evenly should available traction under both wheels or other factors conspire against you.
As to the "LSD" in the G85-equipped Cobalts, it's not technically a "limited slip" differential. I'm sure one of the countless links already posted went over the different types, but the Torsen/Quaife-style helical gear differentials are "torque biasing" differentials. They do not operate like a "locker" or conventional "positraction" unit and don't have clutched mechanisms. If you took a Cobalt equipped with the factory limited-slip diff and put one wheel on solid ice and one on pavement it would actually spin the wheel on ice just like an open diff because the gear-biasing diffs need some traction at both wheels in order to bias torque evenly.
That can be an advantage to a clutch type diff if you were off-roading or racing a road course with drastically different types of surfaces or if one of your driven wheels likes to lift off the ground during cornering at high speeds. Then again if you're racing on pavement where there will always be some traction the gear-biasing diff will generally be smoother in power delivery. It's all a matter of preference and what you intend to do with a car. (And as a side note, if you ever find yourself in a split-mu traction condition in a G85 equipped Cobalt where one wheel has no traction and the other wheel is spinning, all you need to do is gently press the brakes while accelerating. The friction of the brakes will usually provide enough resistance for the diff to be able to bias torque to both wheels. Either that or just turn the traction control back on and let it do it for you. )
Summary:
--> Road course, open roads, tracks that involve turns = limited slip always better*.
--> Drag race = stock open diff might be just as good if everything is perfect...
...but why accept "might" be good "sometimes" when you can get an advantage of being able to "always" put power down better.
*- but which type of those differential will depend on type of driving/conditions.
One of the big problems with drag racing a transaxle with an open diff is what happens should all your work to maximize traction and minimize spinning goes out the window. Say you're running slicks and there's a bit of dirt on the starting line of your track. One will starts to spin early, power gets transferred to that wheel, and if the differential isn't robust enough they have a tendency to grenade and send the massively overtaxed pinion and spider gears out the side of the case.
To summarize, you can drag race an open diff car car but it will be easier to drag race one with a limited slip diff. It increases the chance of putting power down evenly should available traction under both wheels or other factors conspire against you.
As to the "LSD" in the G85-equipped Cobalts, it's not technically a "limited slip" differential. I'm sure one of the countless links already posted went over the different types, but the Torsen/Quaife-style helical gear differentials are "torque biasing" differentials. They do not operate like a "locker" or conventional "positraction" unit and don't have clutched mechanisms. If you took a Cobalt equipped with the factory limited-slip diff and put one wheel on solid ice and one on pavement it would actually spin the wheel on ice just like an open diff because the gear-biasing diffs need some traction at both wheels in order to bias torque evenly.
That can be an advantage to a clutch type diff if you were off-roading or racing a road course with drastically different types of surfaces or if one of your driven wheels likes to lift off the ground during cornering at high speeds. Then again if you're racing on pavement where there will always be some traction the gear-biasing diff will generally be smoother in power delivery. It's all a matter of preference and what you intend to do with a car. (And as a side note, if you ever find yourself in a split-mu traction condition in a G85 equipped Cobalt where one wheel has no traction and the other wheel is spinning, all you need to do is gently press the brakes while accelerating. The friction of the brakes will usually provide enough resistance for the diff to be able to bias torque to both wheels. Either that or just turn the traction control back on and let it do it for you.
)Summary:
--> Road course, open roads, tracks that involve turns = limited slip always better*.
--> Drag race = stock open diff might be just as good if everything is perfect...
...but why accept "might" be good "sometimes" when you can get an advantage of being able to "always" put power down better.
*- but which type of those differential will depend on type of driving/conditions.
