Found a fix... CEL with CAI
01-31-2006, 01:29 AM
#26
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Not a problem. I spent a lot of money on these parts, but they will be worth it. No more racing SRT'4s and wondering if hes a better driver or am I. No more worrying about engine problems. Our ECOTEC engine can support alot. I spent nearly $1300, but to me, its worth it. The cams were the most expensive, and the labor will be hellishly expensive. But, the shop is going to let me get dirty with them, so I will be doing some of the work too, which cuts down on cost. I ordered the GMPP ECOTEC Performance Guide and got it about 4 days ago, and WOW... I learned alot by just reading that stuff and doing research online. Itll take time, but, I think that our Cobalts will be the next "force to be reckoned with" on the streets. Ill keep you updated, and when all my parts get installed and tuned properly, Ill repost dyno. Itll be astounding from what Im told.
01-31-2006, 01:48 AM
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Here is that other thread about Spark Plugs..... https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lsj-performance-tech-47/what-spark-plug-use-11993/
Quote from the thread by BrianMP5T: "Two Trains of thought on Forced Induction and Iridium..
Iridium uses a very small annode that can withstand silly heat
Regular Spark plugs cant take unreal heat but because they are larger, they can disipate it fast.
The basic problem is that in some cases, the iridium plug gets so hot that it can actually be the cause of detonation."
Quote from the thread by BrianMP5T: "Two Trains of thought on Forced Induction and Iridium..
Iridium uses a very small annode that can withstand silly heat
Regular Spark plugs cant take unreal heat but because they are larger, they can disipate it fast.
The basic problem is that in some cases, the iridium plug gets so hot that it can actually be the cause of detonation."
01-31-2006, 10:27 AM
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The only way your engine or spark plugs are going to get that hot, is if you race it around EVERYWHERE you go. The occasional WOT is not going to be an issue. I will agree with BrainMP5T, if they get to hot they can detonate. But that can happen with ANY spark plug. I asked a very reputable car club on what they run in ALL of their Grand National Pontiacs, and they said NGK Iridiums. They all run turbo setups, similar to ours, and they use those plugs. I like them, and will continue to use them.
01-31-2006, 10:46 AM
#30
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your the first ive heard that had a cel with the jbp intake...wierd, well glad your car is running strong i wanna get this intake aswell but affraid of all the bs that i may run into.
01-31-2006, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cobaltss12
I have the JBP CAI on my 06 SS/SC Cobalt. I have had a check engine light for a couple of weeks. Through dyno testing at Alamo and several different opinions, I decided to go with new spark plugs. The problem with the CAI, is that, and Im sure everyone knows this, is that when you put a CAI on, more air is being forced through the blower, thus causing the engine to not know how much fuel to mix with the incoming air. The Air/Fuel ratio is fucked. You can do a couple of options...
1. Get a MAF Translator. Works well, but all your doing is tricking the MAF Sensor and computer.
2. Get bigger fuel injectors and a miniAFC. Works well too, but your spending a good piece of money.
3. Upgrade spark plugs.
My Air/Fuel ratio was off the chart. Seriously! On high end RPM, close to 6000RPMs, I was pushing very lean fuel injection. On low end RPMs, idle and low 2000RPM range, I was extremely rich... 16 to be exact. The chart only goes to about 14 or so.
I was told by the GM Performance group, through different channels of contact, that our stock spark plugs, do not give the best "spark" and thus, they do not ignite all the fuel being injected with more air flow. Everybody says that Iridium spark plugs are not the way to go, but straight from the GM Performance group, I was told that with more air flow(CAI, Airbox mod, or whatever) you will need better spark plugs to give you more spark, to ignite all the fuel.
So, I went out and bough some NGK Iridium IX spark plugs. I put them in myself, which is not hard at all, expect for the last plug, and then turned the key. It took about 4 minutes of ideling, but the CEL went off, and I no longer heard a "knock." The "knock" was the injectors, told to me by the GM Performance group. With better spark plugs to ignite more fuel with more air... you will correct the CEL thrown when you put a CAI on the SS/SC. I have also noticed a tad bit better reaction time with revving the engine. Theres a delay when revving because our cars are "drive by wire" setup.
I went back to Alamo to get re-dynoed and the Air/Fuel ratio was in normal range. I cant be 100% positive on this fix, but its a damn good way to try. Just thought Id share the good news. Well, it was good news for me anyways.
David
1. Get a MAF Translator. Works well, but all your doing is tricking the MAF Sensor and computer.
2. Get bigger fuel injectors and a miniAFC. Works well too, but your spending a good piece of money.
3. Upgrade spark plugs.
My Air/Fuel ratio was off the chart. Seriously! On high end RPM, close to 6000RPMs, I was pushing very lean fuel injection. On low end RPMs, idle and low 2000RPM range, I was extremely rich... 16 to be exact. The chart only goes to about 14 or so.
I was told by the GM Performance group, through different channels of contact, that our stock spark plugs, do not give the best "spark" and thus, they do not ignite all the fuel being injected with more air flow. Everybody says that Iridium spark plugs are not the way to go, but straight from the GM Performance group, I was told that with more air flow(CAI, Airbox mod, or whatever) you will need better spark plugs to give you more spark, to ignite all the fuel.
So, I went out and bough some NGK Iridium IX spark plugs. I put them in myself, which is not hard at all, expect for the last plug, and then turned the key. It took about 4 minutes of ideling, but the CEL went off, and I no longer heard a "knock." The "knock" was the injectors, told to me by the GM Performance group. With better spark plugs to ignite more fuel with more air... you will correct the CEL thrown when you put a CAI on the SS/SC. I have also noticed a tad bit better reaction time with revving the engine. Theres a delay when revving because our cars are "drive by wire" setup.
I went back to Alamo to get re-dynoed and the Air/Fuel ratio was in normal range. I cant be 100% positive on this fix, but its a damn good way to try. Just thought Id share the good news. Well, it was good news for me anyways.
David
I think the problem you got for the last RPM's were plug misfiring, not detonation (knock). That's why it's now better with the iridium plugs.
Speaking about the CEL P0171, the better is to find the real cause and cure it. We all know the REAL cause is not the spark plug at all.
Here is why :
A CAI flow more than the stock air filter, so the Mass Air Flow sensor frequency is now higher with the CAI. Since the amount of air is always greater than stock, the PCM must now add more fuel to achieve the ideal air fuel ratio of 14.7:1 (when cruising) that is used to calculate with the 02 sensor voltage. So it now add more fuel under any conditions (it can be seen by the Long Term Fuel Trims parameters on a scanning tool or the Aeroforce Scan Gauge). If the amount of extra gas needed is more than 20% than stock, boom the CEL goes ON.
FYI, the CEL won't come in when accelerating hard, but mainly when cruising (when the PCM is in closed loop operation; it means it logs the exhaust 02 voltage and then calculate of long the injectors must remain open to achieve the 14,7:1 AFR).
FYI, the P0171 code does not mean your air fuel ratio is TOO lean and the engine will blow. It's not leaner when cruising, but only leaner when accelerating hard (open loop mode). You could say : OK I will let this CEL ON, but if you run with it always on, you won't know if another code come out.
Hope this help.
01-31-2006, 08:30 PM
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Found that sitel; it gives a good idea about NGK plug numbers ...
http://www.stealth316.com/misc/ngk-partnumberkey.pdf
Don't the TR55IX are tapered seat ? Also, they are 1/2 range hotter than stock.
I would suggest BKR7EIX over them ...
http://www.stealth316.com/misc/ngk-partnumberkey.pdf
Don't the TR55IX are tapered seat ? Also, they are 1/2 range hotter than stock.
I would suggest BKR7EIX over them ...
01-31-2006, 08:43 PM
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IM interested in upgrading my sparkplugs, and had NGK's in the past and had no problems with them. How do you properly measure the gap on the Sparkplug, I think I used the out of box gap too on my previous car, but if the colbalt says it should be .35, thats where I will put it. Is there a tool you can use or something?
01-31-2006, 09:00 PM
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You can use a gapper. Usually auto part stores will have them. I didnt use one because the plugs already came gapped at the .35 for our type of engine.
Jmc007... your post was excellent. Im glad someone else notices these posts and will give their knowledge on the subject. Im no professional, but I do know some things, and its good to see that someone else knows a little more than myself. Your posts are very detail and accurate.
Jmc007... your post was excellent. Im glad someone else notices these posts and will give their knowledge on the subject. Im no professional, but I do know some things, and its good to see that someone else knows a little more than myself. Your posts are very detail and accurate.
02-01-2006, 12:05 AM
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So getting better spark plugs are part of the answer. The other part of the answer is to actually have the car tuned properly. Is it true that you shouldn't gap Iridium spark plugs because the tips are fragile?
and off topic... WHERE ARE THE PICS OF KELLY CLARKSON U PROMISED?!?!
just playin'
and off topic... WHERE ARE THE PICS OF KELLY CLARKSON U PROMISED?!?!
just playin'
02-01-2006, 09:20 PM
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I purchased the plugs today but noticed 2 things 1) out of the box they are gapped at .60 and my factory ones are gapped and 36 and 2) they have a different seats. did anyone check the gap before install? Thanks..
02-03-2006, 03:47 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by cobaltss12
I have the JBP CAI on my 06 SS/SC Cobalt. I have had a check engine light for a couple of weeks. Through dyno testing at Alamo and several different opinions, I decided to go with new spark plugs. The problem with the CAI, is that, and Im sure everyone knows this, is that when you put a CAI on, more air is being forced through the blower, thus causing the engine to not know how much fuel to mix with the incoming air. The Air/Fuel ratio is fucked. You can do a couple of options...
1. Get a MAF Translator. Works well, but all your doing is tricking the MAF Sensor and computer.
2. Get bigger fuel injectors and a miniAFC. Works well too, but your spending a good piece of money.
3. Upgrade spark plugs.
My Air/Fuel ratio was off the chart. Seriously! On high end RPM, close to 6000RPMs, I was pushing very lean fuel injection. On low end RPMs, idle and low 2000RPM range, I was extremely rich... 16 to be exact. The chart only goes to about 14 or so.
I was told by the GM Performance group, through different channels of contact, that our stock spark plugs, do not give the best "spark" and thus, they do not ignite all the fuel being injected with more air flow. Everybody says that Iridium spark plugs are not the way to go, but straight from the GM Performance group, I was told that with more air flow(CAI, Airbox mod, or whatever) you will need better spark plugs to give you more spark, to ignite all the fuel.
So, I went out and bough some NGK Iridium IX spark plugs. I put them in myself, which is not hard at all, expect for the last plug, and then turned the key. It took about 4 minutes of ideling, but the CEL went off, and I no longer heard a "knock." The "knock" was the injectors, told to me by the GM Performance group. With better spark plugs to ignite more fuel with more air... you will correct the CEL thrown when you put a CAI on the SS/SC. I have also noticed a tad bit better reaction time with revving the engine. Theres a delay when revving because our cars are "drive by wire" setup.
I went back to Alamo to get re-dynoed and the Air/Fuel ratio was in normal range. I cant be 100% positive on this fix, but its a damn good way to try. Just thought Id share the good news. Well, it was good news for me anyways.
David
1. Get a MAF Translator. Works well, but all your doing is tricking the MAF Sensor and computer.
2. Get bigger fuel injectors and a miniAFC. Works well too, but your spending a good piece of money.
3. Upgrade spark plugs.
My Air/Fuel ratio was off the chart. Seriously! On high end RPM, close to 6000RPMs, I was pushing very lean fuel injection. On low end RPMs, idle and low 2000RPM range, I was extremely rich... 16 to be exact. The chart only goes to about 14 or so.
I was told by the GM Performance group, through different channels of contact, that our stock spark plugs, do not give the best "spark" and thus, they do not ignite all the fuel being injected with more air flow. Everybody says that Iridium spark plugs are not the way to go, but straight from the GM Performance group, I was told that with more air flow(CAI, Airbox mod, or whatever) you will need better spark plugs to give you more spark, to ignite all the fuel.
So, I went out and bough some NGK Iridium IX spark plugs. I put them in myself, which is not hard at all, expect for the last plug, and then turned the key. It took about 4 minutes of ideling, but the CEL went off, and I no longer heard a "knock." The "knock" was the injectors, told to me by the GM Performance group. With better spark plugs to ignite more fuel with more air... you will correct the CEL thrown when you put a CAI on the SS/SC. I have also noticed a tad bit better reaction time with revving the engine. Theres a delay when revving because our cars are "drive by wire" setup.
I went back to Alamo to get re-dynoed and the Air/Fuel ratio was in normal range. I cant be 100% positive on this fix, but its a damn good way to try. Just thought Id share the good news. Well, it was good news for me anyways.
David
did you gap them or just put them in? i dont know how to gap a plug so it would help lol
03-04-2006, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Fast Freddy
I purchased the plugs today but noticed 2 things 1) out of the box they are gapped at .60 and my factory ones are gapped and 36 and 2) they have a different seats. did anyone check the gap before install? Thanks..
03-04-2006, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Jmc007
Fast Freddy any results with your new plugs ?
03-04-2006, 10:01 AM
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The plugs/coils/boots are under the polished plate between the cams.
As for going by out of the box gap, are you nuts?
I wouldn't do that if they were going in my beater.
I always check my plugs with a feeler gauge.
As for going by out of the box gap, are you nuts?
I wouldn't do that if they were going in my beater.
I always check my plugs with a feeler gauge.
03-04-2006, 11:16 AM
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I'd check the gap on the plugs too. Sometimes they come out of the box looking like a girl I knew that looked like she could eat corn on the cob through a pickett fence. The wrong gap can cause all sorts of issues.
03-04-2006, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by silverSS
has anyone seen this happen besides the thread starter?
03-04-2006, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by silverSS
has anyone seen this happen besides the thread starter?
I do hope all goes well
03-13-2006, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by d_backer1
I will let ya know as soon as I know, I just ordered mine yesterday from cobalt addiction I do hope all goes well
I do hope all goes wellHere is some info I found from NGK's Website on the subject
"Since the gap size has a direct affect on the spark plug's tip temperature and on the voltage necessary to ionise (light) the air/fuel mixture, careful attention is required. While it is a popular misconception that plugs are pre-gapped from the factory, the fact remains that the gap must be adjusted for the vehicle that the spark plug is intended for. Those with modified engines must remember that a modified engine with higher compression or forced induction will typically require a smaller gap settings (to ensure ignitability in these denser air/fuel mixtures). As a rule, the more power you are making, the smaller the gap you will need."
A spark plug's voltage requirement is directly proportionate to the gap size. The larger the gap, the more voltage is needed to bridge the gap. Most experienced tuners know that opening gaps up to present a larger spark to the air/fuel mixture maximises burn efficiency. It is for this reason that most racers add high power ignition systems. The added power allows them to open the gap yet still provide a strong spark"
"To be blunt, when experienced tuners build race motors, they select their spark plugs for different reasons: to remove heat more efficiently, provide sufficient spark to completely light all the air/fuel mixture, to survive the added stresses placed upon a high performance engine's spark plugs, and to achieve optimum piston-to-plug clearance"
Here is a link to dispell any myths that platinum is superior to irridium. NGK spent alot of time researching the subject and give you their findings on their site.
http://www.ngkspark.com.au/feature_index.htm
After all my readings, I have concluded that it is possible that after adding a CAI to our cars, we increase air, the ECU (most likely) increases fuel to compensate, but our stock sparks are not designed to handle the new air/fuel mixture so cannot burn the new mixture resulting in a CEL. After all, the sparks GM added to the LSJ were for "stock" air/fuel mixtures. So logically one must assume that by adding more fuel/air one must add more spark to burn it.
Been a week and I'm wondering where they're at Ordered them 03/03/06 so I figured I'd have them by now
