Hahn Racecraft LSJ GT35R Turbo Project PICS RELEASED!
12-29-2007, 01:27 PM
#227
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sure you are.
this has no connection to the MAF what so ever.
my point still stands as valid and correct.
also, i think bill had mentioned that he was planing on having the kit out before summer rolls around.
however i am familiar with the needed R&D behind a project like this and if it doesn't make it out till summer or later i wont be suprised nor disappointed.
its always better to release a kit thats a bit late rather then a kit thats unfinished in any regard.
this has no connection to the MAF what so ever.
my point still stands as valid and correct.
also, i think bill had mentioned that he was planing on having the kit out before summer rolls around.
however i am familiar with the needed R&D behind a project like this and if it doesn't make it out till summer or later i wont be suprised nor disappointed.
its always better to release a kit thats a bit late rather then a kit thats unfinished in any regard.
12-29-2007, 01:29 PM
#228
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12-29-2007, 02:48 PM
#229
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As Silver SS/SC notes, we do offer a complete turbosystem solution for 2.4, albeit aimed at more moderate power levels than what you see here in this new system for LSJ.
For those 2.4 owners who wish to use this system, it will be available in a 'Tuner' version, which does not include a fuel system/engine management solution. It should fit the 2.4 (and 2.2) cars with minor massaging. As it's intended as a bolt-in for SC (LSJ) cars, it won't be an exact fit for the other cars, but it will go in!
Absolutely. We already have a car lined up to do the Super 20G version, and expect to complete that by end of winter. Both the GT35R and Super 20G versions will be available in spring. At this point, we are far enough along in development for that to be a dependable estimate.
I'd heartily recommend that you still go through all the pages if you are at all interested in purchasing this setup!
Nonetheless, I will resist the urge to 'guess' a price. I've been down this road too many times...
If I guess high, it can drive away prospective customers, some who then are disappointed a second time when they instead choose different, less expensive options, then later learn this setup would have actually cost less than 'guessed' at...
If I guess low, folks cry foul when the actual price is released! No, it's better to wait. I will price the systems in all their iterations as soon as a complete bill of materials can be calculated.
For those 2.4 owners who wish to use this system, it will be available in a 'Tuner' version, which does not include a fuel system/engine management solution. It should fit the 2.4 (and 2.2) cars with minor massaging. As it's intended as a bolt-in for SC (LSJ) cars, it won't be an exact fit for the other cars, but it will go in!
Nonetheless, I will resist the urge to 'guess' a price. I've been down this road too many times...
If I guess high, it can drive away prospective customers, some who then are disappointed a second time when they instead choose different, less expensive options, then later learn this setup would have actually cost less than 'guessed' at...
If I guess low, folks cry foul when the actual price is released! No, it's better to wait. I will price the systems in all their iterations as soon as a complete bill of materials can be calculated.
Last edited by Hahn RaceCraft; 12-29-2007 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
12-29-2007, 02:49 PM
#230
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So will the final LSJ system include a PCM flash and a portfueler? Is the PCM locked by the flash?
I am already an HPT user and from my standpoint a locked PCM would be disappointing because I have already invested in HPTuners.
I am already an HPT user and from my standpoint a locked PCM would be disappointing because I have already invested in HPTuners.
12-29-2007, 03:22 PM
#231
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Super 20G without PortFueler (for moderate power using a single injector per cylinder and the stock PCM to control it)
Super 20G with PortFueler (for those wishing to produce as much as 475 HP)
GT35R with PortFueler (for those who just must 'have it all' with built engines and up to 600 HP)
In each instance, the PCM will remain unlocked to accomodate you folks who are doing your own fine-tuning.
Additinally, each of the three turbosystem versions will be available as 'Tuner' kits, where the installer will provide his/her own engine management solutions.
12-29-2007, 05:43 PM
#233
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sure you are.
this has no connection to the MAF what so ever.
my point still stands as valid and correct.
also, i think bill had mentioned that he was planing on having the kit out before summer rolls around.
however i am familiar with the needed R&D behind a project like this and if it doesn't make it out till summer or later i wont be suprised nor disappointed.
its always better to release a kit thats a bit late rather then a kit thats unfinished in any regard.
this has no connection to the MAF what so ever.
my point still stands as valid and correct.
also, i think bill had mentioned that he was planing on having the kit out before summer rolls around.
however i am familiar with the needed R&D behind a project like this and if it doesn't make it out till summer or later i wont be suprised nor disappointed.
its always better to release a kit thats a bit late rather then a kit thats unfinished in any regard.
12-29-2007, 09:30 PM
#234
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While I'd never argue against the concept that in unlimited applications, an open external wastegate dump can can produce more power, it's all very relative. The Subaru and DSM applications you cite are considerably more advanced than what we are doing here, what with many more enthusiasts pursuing the ultimate results in much more expensive vehicles. However, that argument can be applied to just about anything, that 100% optimization is always achievable if we just change this or that or put more money into a given area. In my part of the business, we strive to design and offer turbosystems that take all of these factors into account, and determine the best course of action based upon meeting objectives of affordability and streetability, constraints that individual enthusiasts are not limited by in their custom builds.
In this instance, the internally wastegated turbo serves a number of excellent purposes without significant derisive effect, certainly nothing approaching the 'odd' or 'ROFL' stage.
As we build street-intended systems, we just don't ever do open wastegate dumps. Sure, you've seen others do it, and other companies sell it...I just won't. Its a philosophy I've gained in over three decades of turbosystem experience. I don't care for the noise, I don't like the concept of safety issues regardng a 1600-degree, 20-PSI blowtorch at WOT (seen more fires from this than you can imagine!), and it's also an emissions no-no.
As for your theory regarding spool-up, well...you are entitled to it, but I don't agree. During spool-up, the wastegate won't even begin to crack open until we see significant boost pressure, and at that point, we are still nowhere near maximizing the flow of the 3" downpipe, so adding the bypassed gases emitted by the wastegate into that 3" downpipe offers inconsequential flow impediment. If there's any impediment at all, it comes nowhere near adding 'positive pressure' to the turbine outlet side during spool; remember, there's atmospheric pressure at the other end of that exhaust system, so the ability to create positive back pressure with wastegate flow (a small percentage of overall engine flow) just isn't there. Further, the gas flow escaping from the turbine wheel creates a scavenging effect on the wastegate's outlet port, further enhancing flow.
In summary, sure...at 600 HP, we could probably gain more power with an external wastegate dump. Would this gain justify the additional cost and complexity, and numerous shortcomings I am uncomfortable with? Would the additional power even matter? Not in this market...with all due respect, it's hard enough to get Cobalt folks to buy complete turbosystems, and everything we can do to make the turbosystems simpler and more affordable is a real move towards actual product viability.
In this instance, the internally wastegated turbo serves a number of excellent purposes without significant derisive effect, certainly nothing approaching the 'odd' or 'ROFL' stage.
As we build street-intended systems, we just don't ever do open wastegate dumps. Sure, you've seen others do it, and other companies sell it...I just won't. Its a philosophy I've gained in over three decades of turbosystem experience. I don't care for the noise, I don't like the concept of safety issues regardng a 1600-degree, 20-PSI blowtorch at WOT (seen more fires from this than you can imagine!), and it's also an emissions no-no.
As for your theory regarding spool-up, well...you are entitled to it, but I don't agree. During spool-up, the wastegate won't even begin to crack open until we see significant boost pressure, and at that point, we are still nowhere near maximizing the flow of the 3" downpipe, so adding the bypassed gases emitted by the wastegate into that 3" downpipe offers inconsequential flow impediment. If there's any impediment at all, it comes nowhere near adding 'positive pressure' to the turbine outlet side during spool; remember, there's atmospheric pressure at the other end of that exhaust system, so the ability to create positive back pressure with wastegate flow (a small percentage of overall engine flow) just isn't there. Further, the gas flow escaping from the turbine wheel creates a scavenging effect on the wastegate's outlet port, further enhancing flow.
In summary, sure...at 600 HP, we could probably gain more power with an external wastegate dump. Would this gain justify the additional cost and complexity, and numerous shortcomings I am uncomfortable with? Would the additional power even matter? Not in this market...with all due respect, it's hard enough to get Cobalt folks to buy complete turbosystems, and everything we can do to make the turbosystems simpler and more affordable is a real move towards actual product viability.
so in simple terms what your saying is that yeah you could achieve more power with an external wastegate, but given the car (cobalt ss s/c) and the average consumer (younger generation i.e. less money) an the average intended purpose street strip i.e the average cobalt owner is not using thier ride to make money in cmpetion driving. so from a buisness aspect the extra cost in parts and labor isnt worth Hahn setting this bad boy up with an external wastegate. does that sum it up?
BTW Bill I'll be sending you a LSJ crankshaft shortly. I found one.
12-30-2007, 01:53 AM
#235
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I'd heartily recommend that you still go through all the pages if you are at all interested in purchasing this setup!
Nonetheless, I will resist the urge to 'guess' a price. I've been down this road too many times...
If I guess high, it can drive away prospective customers, some who then are disappointed a second time when they instead choose different, less expensive options, then later learn this setup would have actually cost less than 'guessed' at...
If I guess low, folks cry foul when the actual price is released! No, it's better to wait. I will price the systems in all their iterations as soon as a complete bill of materials can be calculated.
Nonetheless, I will resist the urge to 'guess' a price. I've been down this road too many times...
If I guess high, it can drive away prospective customers, some who then are disappointed a second time when they instead choose different, less expensive options, then later learn this setup would have actually cost less than 'guessed' at...
If I guess low, folks cry foul when the actual price is released! No, it's better to wait. I will price the systems in all their iterations as soon as a complete bill of materials can be calculated.
12-30-2007, 09:21 AM
#236
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so in simple terms what your saying is that yeah you could achieve more power with an external wastegate, but given the car (cobalt ss s/c) and the average consumer (younger generation i.e. less money) an the average intended purpose street strip i.e the average cobalt owner is not using thier ride to make money in cmpetion driving. so from a buisness aspect the extra cost in parts and labor isnt worth Hahn setting this bad boy up with an external wastegate. does that sum it up?
12-30-2007, 07:19 PM
#237
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Bill- Will there be any warranty on these kits at all and what internals are needed in order to make this work. Also will you be able to hook up nitrous to this safely?
12-31-2007, 11:50 AM
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Entire system for 12 months against defects in materials and workmanship
Turbo Manifold for FIVE YEARS against cracking
For the 20G versions, you may run an engine with stock internals. Will they hold up to 400-plus HP? We don't know for sure yet, but if other Ecotecs we've worked with that share similar internals are any indication, the answer is yes.
For GT35R, internals are definitely recommended. For the most part, pistons, rods, and head studs are your primary concern. Some believe that 'null' balance shafts (or balance shaft elimination) should also be installed for hi-HP use. Anything that's going to be subject to 550-plus HP should also see the cylinder sleeves replaced.
GM offers an excellent resource in their Ecotec Build Book, which contains invaluable data for the hi-HP Ecotec inclined. Get one if you are at all serious about doing a modded engine. Your best bet is research, education, and hooking up with a skilled engine builder.
Nitrous use is really more about how much a particular engine and nitrous installation can take and deliver safely than anything else. Careful nitrous system design, combined with optimal integration into the existing engine management and fuel supply system, as well as integration into the turbosystem, are the keys to enjoyable nitrous use. If you (or someone you choose) can answer affirmatively to these requirements, you are good to go. If not, I'd recommend you take the money it would cost to purchase the nitrous kit and a new engine to Vegas instead, and toss it on the craps table...your chances of success are about the same, and your hands won't get dirty!
All kidding aside, we've proven over and over that we can make all the power 99-plus% of you need with turbocharging alone. The remaining less than 1% have the resources outlined above to achieve the mega-power they desire that would require the addition of nitrous.
I did not, Vince. Please try again.
Last edited by Hahn RaceCraft; 01-03-2008 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
01-01-2008, 11:31 AM
#242
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Yes, we proudly warranty our systems as follows:
Entire system for 12 months against defects in materials and workmanship
Turbo Manifold for FIVE YEARS against cracking
For the 20G versions, you may run an engine with stock internals. Will they hold up to 400-plus HP? We don't know for sure yet, but if other Ecotecs we've worked with that share similar internals are any indication, the answer is yes.
For GT35R, internals are definitely recommended. For the most part, pistons, rods, and head studs are your primary concern. Some believe that 'null' balance shafts (or balance shaft elimination) should also be installed for hi-HP use. Anything that's going to be subject to 550-plus HP should also see the cylinder sleeves replaced.
GM offers an excellent resource in their Ecotec Build Book, which contains invaluable data for the hi-HP Ecotec inclined. Get one if you are at all serious about doing a modded engine. Your best bet is research, education, and hooking up with a skilled engine builder.
Nitrous use is really more about how much a particular engine and nitrous installation can take and deliver safely than anything else. Careful nitrous system design, combined with optimal integration into the existing engine management and fuel supply system, as well as integration into the turbosystem, are the keys to enjoyable nitrous use. If you (or someone you choose) can answer affirmatively to these requirements, you are good to go. If not, I'd recommend you instead take the money it would cost to purchase the nitrous kit and a new engine to Vegas instead, and toss it on the craps table...your chances of success are about the same, and your hands won't get dirty!
All kidding aside, we've proven over and over that we can make all the power 99-plus% of you need with turbocharging alone. The remaining less than 1% have the resources outlined above to achieve the mega-power they desire that would require the addition of nitrous.
I did not, Vince. Please try again.
Entire system for 12 months against defects in materials and workmanship
Turbo Manifold for FIVE YEARS against cracking
For the 20G versions, you may run an engine with stock internals. Will they hold up to 400-plus HP? We don't know for sure yet, but if other Ecotecs we've worked with that share similar internals are any indication, the answer is yes.
For GT35R, internals are definitely recommended. For the most part, pistons, rods, and head studs are your primary concern. Some believe that 'null' balance shafts (or balance shaft elimination) should also be installed for hi-HP use. Anything that's going to be subject to 550-plus HP should also see the cylinder sleeves replaced.
GM offers an excellent resource in their Ecotec Build Book, which contains invaluable data for the hi-HP Ecotec inclined. Get one if you are at all serious about doing a modded engine. Your best bet is research, education, and hooking up with a skilled engine builder.
Nitrous use is really more about how much a particular engine and nitrous installation can take and deliver safely than anything else. Careful nitrous system design, combined with optimal integration into the existing engine management and fuel supply system, as well as integration into the turbosystem, are the keys to enjoyable nitrous use. If you (or someone you choose) can answer affirmatively to these requirements, you are good to go. If not, I'd recommend you instead take the money it would cost to purchase the nitrous kit and a new engine to Vegas instead, and toss it on the craps table...your chances of success are about the same, and your hands won't get dirty!
All kidding aside, we've proven over and over that we can make all the power 99-plus% of you need with turbocharging alone. The remaining less than 1% have the resources outlined above to achieve the mega-power they desire that would require the addition of nitrous.
I did not, Vince. Please try again.
01-01-2008, 01:00 PM
#243
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Sorry no new pictures as of yet as Ive just been driving the hell outta it to get the miles on it so Bill can finish the fuel system and finally put some boost into the motor! There will be videos to come when it hits the dyno as well as numbers!
As far as driveability goes... It drives AMAZING! Very smooth and it runs like a champ! Does have a nice whistle at idle and a nice whistle under slight acceleration! All in all Im so freakin excited to finally get it back to Bill and get some nice numbers! It will be back to Bill by this Friday maybe sooner so he can do his magic!
As far as driveability goes... It drives AMAZING! Very smooth and it runs like a champ! Does have a nice whistle at idle and a nice whistle under slight acceleration! All in all Im so freakin excited to finally get it back to Bill and get some nice numbers! It will be back to Bill by this Friday maybe sooner so he can do his magic!
01-03-2008, 11:22 AM
#244
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Car will be back at Hahn Racecraft tomorrow (Friday) for the finishing touches on the fuel system and to finally put some boost into the car. More pics and vids will be up asap!
01-03-2008, 02:10 PM
#247
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)http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer...LSJ-Build-Book
you're welcome
on an unrelated note.. its nice to see you back Bill.
-Brian
01-03-2008, 02:18 PM
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Once we start, we will gradually work our way up to 'ludicrous speed', so be patient, my friends. As you might imagine, we've got other development cars on hand too, so if all goes well, the whole process with Project GT35R-LSJ should be wrapped up by month's end.
01-03-2008, 02:19 PM
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Ah, the time draws near. Just so everyone has an idea of the timeline on this, we have to install more components before we proceed, so it will be at least a few days before we start to 'put the screws' to her.
Once we start, we will gradually work our way up to 'ludicrous speed', so be patient, my friends. As you might imagine, we've got other development cars on hand too, so if all goes well, the whole process with Project GT35R-LSJ should be wrapped up by month's end.
Once we start, we will gradually work our way up to 'ludicrous speed', so be patient, my friends. As you might imagine, we've got other development cars on hand too, so if all goes well, the whole process with Project GT35R-LSJ should be wrapped up by month's end.
01-03-2008, 02:23 PM
#250
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since i had it in my favorites, i figured i'd help some people out with the electronic version of the book. all chapters are there. if you decide to print it (i wouldnt) you'll need an extra ink cartridge (or do it at work )
http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer...LSJ-Build-Book
you're welcome
on an unrelated note.. its nice to see you back Bill.
-Brian
)http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer...LSJ-Build-Book
you're welcome
on an unrelated note.. its nice to see you back Bill.
-Brian
Yes, it's great to be back. After the launch of our 2.4 Cobalt turbosystems earlier this year, this whole 2.0 LSJ process was kept pretty quiet until now, as I wanted to have something of real substance to show before I ran my mouth!
Last edited by Hahn RaceCraft; 01-03-2008 at 02:23 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost