K&N responds to MAF myths
08-09-2007 | 02:15 AM
#1
K&N responds to MAF myths
Sorry if this is a repost , i searched and found nothing .
http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=422
Article from the above K&N link
More here , http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massair.htm
These test video's are good info aswell
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/2MAFSensorVideo.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/3MAFSensorVideo.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/4MAFSensorVideo.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/1MAFSensorVideo.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=422
Article from the above K&N link
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K&N Reveals Mass Air Flow Sensor Urban Myths
There are four words from a mechanic that should trigger a red flag for consumers, Mass Air Flow Sensor. A little knowledge about this “mystery” sensor can save hundreds of dollars and protect car warranties.
If a mechanic or dealership claims excess oil from a K&N Engineering Lifetime Air Filter caused a Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF) failure, it’s not true. K&N has researched, tested and devoted many hours to confirm the use of K&N Air Filters, including over oiled air filters, will not cause a Mass Air Flow sensor failure under any remotely normal driving conditions.
K&N Engineering Mass Air Flow Testing
K&N Engineering Mass Air Flow Testing
Oil does not come off K&N Filters. If a mechanic or dealership claims K&N is the problem there has to be proof. K&N will often work with consumers to recover money for repairs which legitimately should have been covered under the vehicle’s warranty where warranty coverage would otherwise have been available.
“We’ve tested Mass Air Flow sensors and discovered these parts are being replaced when they don’t need to be,” said K&N Senior Lab Manager Rich Dwyer. “Consumers are sometimes told readings from the Mass Air Flow sensor show it is saturated with oil from a K&N Filter. This is not true. Consumers should ask to see the Mass Air Sensor codes and/or get a second opinion.”
In a period where K&N sold more than 5 million filters, 52 sensors were evaluated. Not one of these suspected MAF sensors sent in for laboratory evaluation were shown to have failed because of contamination from K&N filter oil. In fact, 28 sensors were in perfect operating condition. K&N helped those consumers recover money for unnecessary parts and labor.
The other 24 sensors failed due to factors not related to K&N. There were traces of silicone potting compound which is used in the manufacturing process of MAF sensors, meaning the MAF sensor contaminated itself. There was also evidence of motor oil contamination from blow-by; a condition where oil vapor from combustion is re-circulated into the vehicle’s intake tract.
“A lot of dealerships do not have the ability to test MAF sensors,” said K&N Vice President of Product Development and Engineering Steve Williams. “If you’re going to diagnose something you should show whether it is at fault or not. What they have is what we call the plug and play process. That is where they go through and download some codes and guess. The consumer then gets hit with a bill for components that were never a problem. K&N always tells people the facts.”
K&N Engineering Research and Development Department
K&N Engineering Research and Development Department
There is no silicone in K&N oil and testing has shown that MAF sensors will operate normally after being immersed in K&N Filter oil.
“Who is in a worse position than a consumer who has taken their car into a shop and told this is what you have to do to get your car back on track?” asks K&N CEO Steve Rogers. “Consumers have rights and information is power, no one needs to be taken advantage of.”
K&N is also committed to working with its dealership network and notes that most dealerships provide excellent service and fulfill car warranty obligations without issue, argument or tardiness. K&N is also committed to communicating with its customers and fully disclosing all information about this issue.
K&N encounters less than 200 dealership problems annually, which is very small compared to the number of filters we sell annually (2,500,000), and we treat each situation as if it were our own personal problem.
If you encounter a similar problem related to K&N Filters at your dealership, contact us immediately and allow us to communicate with the dealership on your behalf. K&N has had great success in working with dealerships to resolve these types of issues on behalf of our customers. Many dealerships sell and service K&N Air Filters and we encourage you to work with those dealerships.
“K&N wants to dispel a dealership myth that in some way problems with the ‘mystery’ sensor or Mass Air Flow sensor is tangled with K&N products,” said Williams. “The average consumer does not have a prayer to be able to decided what is true or not. K&N will stand behind our products and go to bat for our consumers.”
For more information about MAF Sensors go to the K&N Mass Air Flow Sensor page.
Find K&N products for your vehicle using the K&N application search then use the K&N dealer search to find a K&N dealer in your part of the world.
K&N Engineering, Inc., with headquarters in Riverside, California, has been the world''s leader in performance filter technology since 1969, serving the needs of the automotive, motorcycle, marine, industrial and military markets. K&N is heavily involved in nearly every form of motorsports from off-road and powersports to drag racing, stock cars and road racing. For more information about K&N Filters, please contact K&N Engineering, Inc., P.O. Box 1329, Riverside, CA 92502-1329, (800) 213-4182 for a dealer near you, (800) 858-3333 for technical service/questions, (951) 826-4001 Fax, e-mail tech@knfilters.com, or visit www.knfilters.com.
K&N Reveals Mass Air Flow Sensor Urban Myths
There are four words from a mechanic that should trigger a red flag for consumers, Mass Air Flow Sensor. A little knowledge about this “mystery” sensor can save hundreds of dollars and protect car warranties.
If a mechanic or dealership claims excess oil from a K&N Engineering Lifetime Air Filter caused a Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF) failure, it’s not true. K&N has researched, tested and devoted many hours to confirm the use of K&N Air Filters, including over oiled air filters, will not cause a Mass Air Flow sensor failure under any remotely normal driving conditions.
K&N Engineering Mass Air Flow Testing
K&N Engineering Mass Air Flow Testing
Oil does not come off K&N Filters. If a mechanic or dealership claims K&N is the problem there has to be proof. K&N will often work with consumers to recover money for repairs which legitimately should have been covered under the vehicle’s warranty where warranty coverage would otherwise have been available.
“We’ve tested Mass Air Flow sensors and discovered these parts are being replaced when they don’t need to be,” said K&N Senior Lab Manager Rich Dwyer. “Consumers are sometimes told readings from the Mass Air Flow sensor show it is saturated with oil from a K&N Filter. This is not true. Consumers should ask to see the Mass Air Sensor codes and/or get a second opinion.”
In a period where K&N sold more than 5 million filters, 52 sensors were evaluated. Not one of these suspected MAF sensors sent in for laboratory evaluation were shown to have failed because of contamination from K&N filter oil. In fact, 28 sensors were in perfect operating condition. K&N helped those consumers recover money for unnecessary parts and labor.
The other 24 sensors failed due to factors not related to K&N. There were traces of silicone potting compound which is used in the manufacturing process of MAF sensors, meaning the MAF sensor contaminated itself. There was also evidence of motor oil contamination from blow-by; a condition where oil vapor from combustion is re-circulated into the vehicle’s intake tract.
“A lot of dealerships do not have the ability to test MAF sensors,” said K&N Vice President of Product Development and Engineering Steve Williams. “If you’re going to diagnose something you should show whether it is at fault or not. What they have is what we call the plug and play process. That is where they go through and download some codes and guess. The consumer then gets hit with a bill for components that were never a problem. K&N always tells people the facts.”
K&N Engineering Research and Development Department
K&N Engineering Research and Development Department
There is no silicone in K&N oil and testing has shown that MAF sensors will operate normally after being immersed in K&N Filter oil.
“Who is in a worse position than a consumer who has taken their car into a shop and told this is what you have to do to get your car back on track?” asks K&N CEO Steve Rogers. “Consumers have rights and information is power, no one needs to be taken advantage of.”
K&N is also committed to working with its dealership network and notes that most dealerships provide excellent service and fulfill car warranty obligations without issue, argument or tardiness. K&N is also committed to communicating with its customers and fully disclosing all information about this issue.
K&N encounters less than 200 dealership problems annually, which is very small compared to the number of filters we sell annually (2,500,000), and we treat each situation as if it were our own personal problem.
If you encounter a similar problem related to K&N Filters at your dealership, contact us immediately and allow us to communicate with the dealership on your behalf. K&N has had great success in working with dealerships to resolve these types of issues on behalf of our customers. Many dealerships sell and service K&N Air Filters and we encourage you to work with those dealerships.
“K&N wants to dispel a dealership myth that in some way problems with the ‘mystery’ sensor or Mass Air Flow sensor is tangled with K&N products,” said Williams. “The average consumer does not have a prayer to be able to decided what is true or not. K&N will stand behind our products and go to bat for our consumers.”
For more information about MAF Sensors go to the K&N Mass Air Flow Sensor page.
Find K&N products for your vehicle using the K&N application search then use the K&N dealer search to find a K&N dealer in your part of the world.
K&N Engineering, Inc., with headquarters in Riverside, California, has been the world''s leader in performance filter technology since 1969, serving the needs of the automotive, motorcycle, marine, industrial and military markets. K&N is heavily involved in nearly every form of motorsports from off-road and powersports to drag racing, stock cars and road racing. For more information about K&N Filters, please contact K&N Engineering, Inc., P.O. Box 1329, Riverside, CA 92502-1329, (800) 213-4182 for a dealer near you, (800) 858-3333 for technical service/questions, (951) 826-4001 Fax, e-mail tech@knfilters.com, or visit www.knfilters.com.
These test video's are good info aswell
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/2MAFSensorVideo.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/3MAFSensorVideo.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/4MAFSensorVideo.htm
http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/1MAFSensorVideo.htm
Last edited by rukkee; 08-09-2007 at 02:38 AM.
08-09-2007 | 12:56 PM
#10
Senior Member
Joined: 07-28-06
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 1
From: Michigan
it seems good except for this paragraph
If a mechanic or dealership claims excess oil from a K&N Engineering Lifetime Air Filter caused a Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF) failure, it’s not true. K&N has researched, tested and devoted many hours to confirm the use of K&N Air Filters, including over oiled air filters, will not cause a Mass Air Flow sensor failure under any remotely normal driving conditions.
normal driving coniditions does not include going to the track or racing. If you look up the definition of normal driving conditions, you will see that maybe 1% of the population at most would qualify as normal driving conditions.
and this
Oil does not come off K&N Filters.
thats a lie, ive used them before, i used one on my last car for about 40,000 miles. After a while i noticed the inside the intake tube was literally coated with oil. I dont think i ever over oiled the filters, even if i did, i allowed the filters to sit out for an hour or two to drain any oil that isnt sticking to the filter.
Now im not saying the oil ruins the MAF or MAP sensors, im just saying those parts of this report seem innacurate in my opinion. But it is nice to see them say they will work hard to help solve any issues you might have and help recover your money
If a mechanic or dealership claims excess oil from a K&N Engineering Lifetime Air Filter caused a Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF) failure, it’s not true. K&N has researched, tested and devoted many hours to confirm the use of K&N Air Filters, including over oiled air filters, will not cause a Mass Air Flow sensor failure under any remotely normal driving conditions.
normal driving coniditions does not include going to the track or racing. If you look up the definition of normal driving conditions, you will see that maybe 1% of the population at most would qualify as normal driving conditions.
and this
Oil does not come off K&N Filters.
thats a lie, ive used them before, i used one on my last car for about 40,000 miles. After a while i noticed the inside the intake tube was literally coated with oil. I dont think i ever over oiled the filters, even if i did, i allowed the filters to sit out for an hour or two to drain any oil that isnt sticking to the filter.
Now im not saying the oil ruins the MAF or MAP sensors, im just saying those parts of this report seem innacurate in my opinion. But it is nice to see them say they will work hard to help solve any issues you might have and help recover your money
08-09-2007 | 02:19 PM
#11
Well as in their articles I read they said the two main causes of MAF failure are contaminents from the MAF itself and from oil blow by. Maybe the oil everyone sees is from Blow by and not from the filter itself. Very Very possible. They said the immersed the MAF in K&N oil and it worked so how does it mess up anyones MAF sensor?
08-09-2007 | 02:27 PM
#12
it seems good except for this paragraph
If a mechanic or dealership claims excess oil from a K&N Engineering Lifetime Air Filter caused a Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF) failure, it’s not true. K&N has researched, tested and devoted many hours to confirm the use of K&N Air Filters, including over oiled air filters, will not cause a Mass Air Flow sensor failure under any remotely normal driving conditions.
normal driving coniditions does not include going to the track or racing. If you look up the definition of normal driving conditions, you will see that maybe 1% of the population at most would qualify as normal driving conditions.
and this
Oil does not come off K&N Filters.
thats a lie, ive used them before, i used one on my last car for about 40,000 miles. After a while i noticed the inside the intake tube was literally coated with oil. I dont think i ever over oiled the filters, even if i did, i allowed the filters to sit out for an hour or two to drain any oil that isnt sticking to the filter.
Now im not saying the oil ruins the MAF or MAP sensors, im just saying those parts of this report seem innacurate in my opinion. But it is nice to see them say they will work hard to help solve any issues you might have and help recover your money
If a mechanic or dealership claims excess oil from a K&N Engineering Lifetime Air Filter caused a Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF) failure, it’s not true. K&N has researched, tested and devoted many hours to confirm the use of K&N Air Filters, including over oiled air filters, will not cause a Mass Air Flow sensor failure under any remotely normal driving conditions.
normal driving coniditions does not include going to the track or racing. If you look up the definition of normal driving conditions, you will see that maybe 1% of the population at most would qualify as normal driving conditions.
and this
Oil does not come off K&N Filters.
thats a lie, ive used them before, i used one on my last car for about 40,000 miles. After a while i noticed the inside the intake tube was literally coated with oil. I dont think i ever over oiled the filters, even if i did, i allowed the filters to sit out for an hour or two to drain any oil that isnt sticking to the filter.
Now im not saying the oil ruins the MAF or MAP sensors, im just saying those parts of this report seem innacurate in my opinion. But it is nice to see them say they will work hard to help solve any issues you might have and help recover your money
Are you sure the oil in the intake wasnt from blow by , or crankcase vapors in the pcv system?
08-09-2007 | 09:08 PM
#13
Member
Joined: 06-18-06
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
From: Oak Ridge, NJ
Well as in their articles I read they said the two main causes of MAF failure are contaminents from the MAF itself and from oil blow by. Maybe the oil everyone sees is from Blow by and not from the filter itself. Very Very possible. They said the immersed the MAF in K&N oil and it worked so how does it mess up anyones MAF sensor?
it did not cause part failure...but it did require the maf to be cleaned. most technician's know they don't cause part failure but many figure its easier to replace it then clean it.
08-09-2007 | 09:36 PM
#14
Senior Member
Joined: 06-12-07
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
From: SEWELL ,NJ
I am a mechanic, and I do work for a dealership, and this is not the hole story.
first off the are different types of MAF, and each one functions differently to different contaminents.
First we can discuss the Karmen Vortex. Msotly used by Chrysler and Benz
this sensor generates turbulance in the incoming are and measures frequance to determan desity and flow. these are extremely efficant and will have 0% failure do to a K&N filter, over oiled or not.
Round 2, the Vain air flow meter, this device cominly used by Ford, Toyota, and most other japanesse companies uses a door mounted to a patentiometer that generates a varying voltage as the door is moved by engine vacuum. this is one of the worst way to measure incoming air as it gives no real indication of density, but rest assured that with a K&N your pretty safe as the only way this could have a problem is if the oil gums up and causes the door to stick. If so just clean it and off you go
Finaly, the Hot WIre, this device, the favored choice of GM and VW uses a super heated wire that when stuck by air calcultes air density and velocity based on how buch voltage is required to maintane temperature as the oncoming are cools the wire.
THESE WILL FAIL IF A DECENT AMOUNT OF K&N FILTER OIL CONTACTS THE WIRE!!!!
the oil cooks to the wire skewing the reading and causing it to eventually eat it self while constantly increasing voltage to correct its resistance.
I have seen this happen more than a few times, but if you remove excess oil as instructed you run very little chance of incountering this problem.
So if you follow the instructions (as few people do) you will be fine.
first off the are different types of MAF, and each one functions differently to different contaminents.
First we can discuss the Karmen Vortex. Msotly used by Chrysler and Benz
this sensor generates turbulance in the incoming are and measures frequance to determan desity and flow. these are extremely efficant and will have 0% failure do to a K&N filter, over oiled or not.
Round 2, the Vain air flow meter, this device cominly used by Ford, Toyota, and most other japanesse companies uses a door mounted to a patentiometer that generates a varying voltage as the door is moved by engine vacuum. this is one of the worst way to measure incoming air as it gives no real indication of density, but rest assured that with a K&N your pretty safe as the only way this could have a problem is if the oil gums up and causes the door to stick. If so just clean it and off you go
Finaly, the Hot WIre, this device, the favored choice of GM and VW uses a super heated wire that when stuck by air calcultes air density and velocity based on how buch voltage is required to maintane temperature as the oncoming are cools the wire.
THESE WILL FAIL IF A DECENT AMOUNT OF K&N FILTER OIL CONTACTS THE WIRE!!!!
the oil cooks to the wire skewing the reading and causing it to eventually eat it self while constantly increasing voltage to correct its resistance.
I have seen this happen more than a few times, but if you remove excess oil as instructed you run very little chance of incountering this problem.
So if you follow the instructions (as few people do) you will be fine.
08-09-2007 | 11:32 PM
#15
I cleaned my K&N for the first time today, and this thread inspired me to write up a litte about it. (I consider myself "above average" when it comes to mechanical knowledge, I've built engines before, just don't want people thinking that I'm like proud of myslef for cleaning a filter)
It SHOULD be almost impossible to over-oil a filter, unless you did not read the instructions, which are both on the back of the two bottles you use and on a separate piece of paper, or you don't comprehend the english language, which sucks for you.
When you apply oil after cleaning, the filter is all grayish-white cotton, looks nothing like a new filter, has no red color to it at all. When it is completely dry, you start to apply a LIGHT bead of oil to each pleat, evenly and smoothly. Let is sit for 20 min, it soaks in pretty good. The 2.0 air filter calls for 1.06 Oz of filter oil according to K&N's website. On the first application, I used a little over .5 Oz when I had done every pleat. I let it sit for 20 min as per the instructions, then re-did another light coat, and let it sit for 20 min. After doing this, you couldn't even see the pink coming through the inside, but I was at about 1 Oz of oil used, so I stopped and put it back together after it finished drying. No CEL or anything, car feels a little better, and the whine sounds louder for some reason. There was quite a bit of dirt caked on one side of the filter.
There is no reason to over-oil a filter, just follow the freaking directions and take your time. Its not something you can do in 20 min, it took almost 2 hours total from start to finish, most of that was waiting for the time to pass, but still you can't rush it.
It SHOULD be almost impossible to over-oil a filter, unless you did not read the instructions, which are both on the back of the two bottles you use and on a separate piece of paper, or you don't comprehend the english language, which sucks for you.
When you apply oil after cleaning, the filter is all grayish-white cotton, looks nothing like a new filter, has no red color to it at all. When it is completely dry, you start to apply a LIGHT bead of oil to each pleat, evenly and smoothly. Let is sit for 20 min, it soaks in pretty good. The 2.0 air filter calls for 1.06 Oz of filter oil according to K&N's website. On the first application, I used a little over .5 Oz when I had done every pleat. I let it sit for 20 min as per the instructions, then re-did another light coat, and let it sit for 20 min. After doing this, you couldn't even see the pink coming through the inside, but I was at about 1 Oz of oil used, so I stopped and put it back together after it finished drying. No CEL or anything, car feels a little better, and the whine sounds louder for some reason. There was quite a bit of dirt caked on one side of the filter.
There is no reason to over-oil a filter, just follow the freaking directions and take your time. Its not something you can do in 20 min, it took almost 2 hours total from start to finish, most of that was waiting for the time to pass, but still you can't rush it.
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