Sorority Demon

I have smoething to say about this, its from a noobish point of view, so bear with me. Also this is my first FI vehicle, My Sentra has only 161whp and with that I have never had a need to be concerned about IAT/cooling temps, so to a certain extent I do not fully understand what is going on. But I am really questioning why it seems that people are going with water/meth injection. Ok, you're spraying water, and a fuel into your engine. I have taken a fuels class, I know meth burns cool, smooth, and slow. But wait, Its bad to take in water from the CAI. So now it's now ok to purposely put it in there? Or is this a MAF thing? I know the maf needs to stay clean, but water is being forced into the motor yet I don't see anyone being concerned about hydrolocking. No worries about the injection system going kaput and dousing your engine with windshield washer fluid of all things. Honestly I thought that **** was more like windex, with ammonia in it, so I am learning something here.

Now how about IAT temps, keeping them down, gotta keep it low. ok fine, but I don't see how that is so hard. If you need to drop those temp why not get a custom intercooling setup; front mounted, extra resovoir, steel braided lines, high efficiency radiators/intercoolers, high flow pump, IC sprayers STI style, etc...? I see what the vendors have, some of that stuff is out there. I don't see a serious product availability problem here, is it the cost? Is it that this would be the hard route and people don't want to take it? Does it not work as effectively as it should? Some of you are spending thousands of dollars improving the cars performance - **** I've got over $3k in parts sitting around. So why are some people spending less than $200 for what to me is a cheap bastard racing fix, and not spending the $ really needed to improve the car's cooling/intercooling?

I look at this water/meth thing like medication, or a band aid, its treating a disease, its covering up a bigger problem. This is where I stand, so please enlighten me.

R33P3R007

I am not positive either. But i think they use the water/meth for other reasons as well. from what i have read and taken from this after sifting through all the bs posts, is that water/ meth doesn't only lowers temps. The meth is also an octane booster like N20. by increasing the octane you can run more timing without seeing knock. so technically you can make more power.

Now, about water. it isn't like hydrolocking your motor. water/meth is used to lessen the amount of just meth your running. it is diliting the meth so your not just running crazy octane. also, the water helps atomize the mixture in the air that is being sent into the motor. and when it does ignite in the combustion chamber it almost totally gone and any that is still in the air would be sent out on the exhaust stroke. at least thats how i figure it. Your not filling your motor with water and meth, your just spraying a fine mist in the air.

I believe, ideally you would want to run water/meth kit, a larger or additional Heat Exchanger, and the dual pass endplate to keep temperatures as low as possible.

DISCLAIMER: If this is all wrong. let a brother know so he can delete before someone thinks it's right

automerge doublepost

Ljavy17

IATs are so important. Let me put it to you this way, I raced an srt this morning. from 40 to 120, My IATs were at 110 in the first race. I put 3 to 4 cars on him. Then I went right away, right after that run and since my car was at like 150degrees hot it was super slow, were were even!!!!!!!! Then I waited again, and waited till my Heat exchanger dropped my temps and went again at 115 and again, I gained on him.

Sorority Demon

So in other words your cooling system is not sufficient for what you do...

Shortbus

No he is trying to say it is, when his iat's were high he lost, then when they went back down he won.

yellowcobaltss05

same thing happened to me when i raced an srt4

Ljavy17

Heat is what kills these cars. Without heat we can actually make the power our PSI is worth. A colder stream of 1lb of psi will give you abnout 8 to 10whp. A heatsoaked blower will only give you 2whp once you go lower than a 2.8 for each extra lb. Thats why it is sooo important for those with a 2.5 pulley to get Dual pass, Heat exchanger to make use of their boost. and to get a Meth to make further use of their boost by taking away heat and also to raise timing with the higher octane given by meth.

Sorority Demon

I really don't care about what happens when you race damn dodge. How is the water/meth going to cool down those temps over long periods of time? Why go with water/meth before I go with major cooling mods?

Ljavy17

""I really don't care about what happens when you race damn dodge""

This is the last time I every to try to post something on one of your threads.

Bad06SS

iTrader: (1)

Are you trying to get help or insult everyone? So far, it's almost as if you're making fun of people for using meth. UNDERSTAND somthing, these "major cooling" mods you're speaking of? They aren't going to do what you think they are. In order to actually make good power, we've got to push these little M62 blowers, and when you push them, they make alot of heat. I've got two heat exchangers, and will be doing a dual pass plate along with a reservoir. I've already got meth injection and it does wonders. On top of cooling the boost down, it increases octane allowing me to run more boost/timing than normal, therefore making more power. Modding FI cars is alot different than modding N/A cars.
You mentioned hydrolock. When your water/meth system is setup, you're not spraying all the time. You're only spraying after "X" amount of boost. Since you're only spraying when there's boost, the heat created by the boost evaporates the water (and meth), so that water never makes it into the engine.

Sorority Demon

I appreciate your informative response, but I didn't see what the point is in bringing up a racing situation. I don't race and it pisses me off to see so much stuff about beating a neon and to get more of it when asking a serious question.

Shortbus

If you dont race then why are you worried about it, and moding your car to be faster?

Sorority Demon

Because I want to. I want to do it right, and I want it to last.

Ljavy17

Heat is what kills these cars. Without heat we can actually make the power our PSI is worth. A colder stream of 1lb of psi will give you abnout 8 to 10whp. A heatsoaked blower will only give you 2whp once you go lower than a 2.8 for each extra lb. Thats why it is sooo important for those with a 2.5 pulley to get Dual pass, Heat exchanger to make use of their boost. and to get a Meth to make further use of their boost by taking away heat and also to raise timing with the higher octane given by meth.


Reposted that in case you were too bothered to see it. If thats not informative I dont know what is. Also I brought up the racing situation to help a newbie or someonewho has no idea what they are talking about understand.

if you want your car to last, dont even mod buddy, Get all GMPP parts and youll be set, running 13s. and under warranty.

BlilBT

The dual pass Heat exchanger & Dual Pass endplate with the Reservoir is double the Price of Meth Setup! I have The Dual pass System with a Custom made reservoir & it cost Me all together about $800.00<<< But this was to Show Quailty! That Might Hold a Few People from Doing it!

Shortbus

So you want to mod it to go faster but you dont race, moded cars break, there for they dont really last as long as a stock car, it kinda seems like your mad people are using water/methanol, when you plan on using smaller than 2.8 its basically a must.

jeremie

heat is what hinders any car, not just ours. the water isnt exactly a big stream of water going into the engine. its a mist. the mist absorbs the heat, so your iat2 temps will be low. low temps=more power. plus you have the methanol raising your octane level as well which will reduce knock and not cause your timing to be pulled down at higher rpms.

if you look at a lot of drag cars, not top fuel and such but like outlaw street and true street drag cars that have turbo set ups, almost all of them are using a form of methanol injection. its not really a "band aid". its actually pretty effective for people who dont have all the money you do to go spend on intercoolers and such.

Psykostevo

I think you, like most people on here have a misconception of the use of Methanol Injection. Yes, it CAN be used as a great intercooler, and works quite well, but is expensive to maintain in comparison to a closed loop system.

We cannot use Intercooler sprayers like the Sti as effectively, because the air-water exchange is not the same type of transfer as air-to-air. They will work, but not very efficiently, because they have no direct contact with the air-charge itself.

The Methanol setup is a replacement for those intercooler sprayers. Since it works directly with the air-charge, it works like spraying the intercooler, and when sprayed at a proper distance before the throttle body, can cool the intake/throttlebody/and supercharger to lower surface temperatures, not only resulting in cooler air, but a cooler ambient environment, thus adding less heat soak to the engine.

A better setup is a closed loop style, like a Dual-pass w/ extra resivoir, and a larger intercooler radiator core. This will help keep the parts from heating up too high in the first place, but their cooling capacity is Finite, and they themselves can become heatsoaked temporarily. The Methanol is always a good backup cooling source, because the methanol itself does not get heatsoaked prior to injection, but it can run out of fluid quickly.

By combining cooling setup's and using them in stage's you would get the most effectiveness, but the total setup of Dualpass, Cobra Heat exchanger, and Methanol will cost roughly $1,200.

SnowTech.3

In reading this thread, I thought I would clarify a few things.

Water-methanol injection can act as the sole intercooler or an additional intercooling source on very high boost/high heat applications very easily. We can drop inlet temps from 50-150 Deg F in most applications. On a triple turbo non-intercooled 3500hp pulling tractor, we dropped inlet temps 250 deg F, but that is not a normal situation, just an extreme example.

Cooling and condensing the intake air charge is a great benefit, but suppressing detonation in the combustion chamber is another huge benefit. As an example - 93 pump gas and a 50/50 water-methanol mixture being injected equals about 116 octane in the combustion chamber. The amount of power you can gain from these characteristics, or at the very least the increase in power as well as the increased detonation insurance are worth the cost alone.

It is actually not expensive to maintain at all - common misconception. You can operate the system on -20 deg F washer fluid every day and that usually costs $1-2 per gallon. A gallon should last you about a tank of fuel - a lot more if you drive like a commuter, less if you every stop light is a drag race.

Midnight

At what point is this system more benefical to use on a car. Do you need any supporting mods or tune?

BravoPuma6

wont the winshield washer fluid eventually clog? due to all the detergents? i always heard it is best mixxed 50 meth and 50 distilled water!

SnowTech.3

No supporting mods needed, but the more you can tune for it (ignition and timing) the more power you can make. Some people just benefit from the colder, denser intake charge, but there is more power to be had, usually.

It is beneficial even on stock naturally aspirated cars, but the more heat and pressure there is, the more benefit it will be.


Windshield washer fluid can be used safely with no problems at all - as long as you pay attention to a couple things. It should be blue, and rated at -20 deg F - that fluid is typically about 30% methanol, 70% water. Colder rating than that and they often include other things to lower the freezing point, like propylene glycol, etc. Don't want to inject that. Don't use rain-x fluid or anything that has soaps, etc. Again, if you get the cheapest, simplest blue -20 deg fluid, you will have no problems. I honestly run washer fluid in my car quite a bit.

Typically, the best results are acheived with a 50/50 mixture (which is why we made out Boost Juice in that ratio) but each application can be different.


I will give the information that I have come across. Spraying before the supercharger tends to be better for a number of reasons. One, is that the installation is much, much simpler and allows for easy changing of nozzles or cleaning of filter pre-screens if there is ever a need. More importantly, it GREATLY reduces the temperature of the rotors and blower housing.

More importantly, is the coating on the rotors. The epoxy-based coating (it is NOT teflon) is there to take up clearance and "self-machines" so that it is a very tight tolerance. All is fine with the world if the blower rpms and heat stay stock. When the blower is spun faster, it creates a great deal more heat, and the additional rpms flex the rotors more which "self machines" more of the coating off, getting it thin enough to sometimes start failing in the much higher heat and start flaking off. Water-methanol injection can usually prevent or prolong the rotor coating due to much cooler temps and acting as a lubricant for the coating.

Injection before the blower allows for very equal distribution, as the water-methanol is sent through the blower and is already started evaporating by the time it hits the manifold. Injecting after the manifold is possible, but you would need to be very sure to get a good spread across all 4 ports.

You can inject pre or post blower, but post blower would require a shut off solenoid to prevent siphoning and an additional nozzle upgrade at the very least. Really, it is up to the customer - if you take the heat out of the intake air between point A and point B, it doesn't matter if it is closer to point A or point B.

BlwnGP

Unfortunately, this is not 100% true. In many cases, spraying before the blower can be detriemental to the health of said coating of the rotors. It has been proven, in many cases on the Grand Prix boards, that spraying before the blower will quickly dissolve the coating on the rotors (in both Gen3 and Gen5 Eaton M90s). This will leave bare, uncoated rotors as an aftermath. Much like gasoline or nitrous, methanol injection is corrosive to those coatings (more so with the older teflon coatings found in the Gen3 superchargers). The newer coating (adiable-sp?) on the Gen5 Eaton's are better than the old teflon coating, but there has still been cases where the coating wears off in about 3-6 months of use with meth injection. I would advise that spraying into the intercooler core in the intake manifold (past the supercharger) is your best solution to be safe. Or, if you are really talented (with a drill and pipe bender), a direct port setup would be the absolute best.

Kennyspec

i spray before my blower and here is a pic of my rotors. i have been spraying for about 30,000kms. most of my coating is gone but then again i have herad from many respectible engine builders that "its just a coating" my blower may make about 1/2psi less than one with a good coating but so what......the cooler IAT temps and more timing ill be bale to run with my water meth setup greatly offsets the loss of this epoxy coating.

R33P3R007

did you ever post more pics of that blower. until then we still think you messed it up some other way

Caugh, Caugh