Edubs

Yeah, I still can't get past that. I mean, the build book suggests the bates for crying out loud. I wonder what the hell happened. Not doubting you Ed, just curious. If I were a cat, I guess I'd be asking to get killed right now...

zinner

Ask Halfcent, he got Bates springs, they failed and dropped a valve and wrecked his engine, so it's shaping up to be bates springs are not that great.

mattyfinch

wow... im gonna keep my kiss philosophy, keep.it.simple.stupid.

Witt

It depends what Bates springs are failing and why. If they are the Bates single coils failing, I could see a problem. If people are using the Bates duals without solid lifters, that would be their own fault.

player_1

I had the Bates Dual coil valve springs and all the Bates components to go with it.
every spring I broke was the outer spring.
the first time we though it was the rocker that fell of and broke the spring, and when they sent the new one it was slighly different. we talked to Bates and they said it was a slighly better spring they upgraded too. and they asherd use that the old one are fine.
then I broke 3 more, and bent the valve which got stock in the guide. looked like it didn't touch the piston at all (lucky) again only the outer spring broke.

they sent over replacement springs, but they different again. so we pulled all the old ones out, and compared them, and the the old one where rock hard and almost had no give to them.
that is what pissed me off most, and why I exploded on them. they made a revision to there springs, and they said nothing to use of the problems after my first spring broke.
after some yelling they refunded me for 17 springs, retainers etc... and I bought the Ferreas been good since then.

Both Bates and Ferrea said that you do not require solid lifters, why would you say that?

Witt

The Bates and Ferrea's are completely different spring pressures. The Bates are rated higher than the Ferrea's high pressure application which both must be run with solid lifters, the hydraulic ones would definetly collapse, which is what sounds like is what happened in your case. I even believe GM, as quoted by Wopontour from the redline forums states the Bates dual coils even have to be run without valve seals to prevent coil bind. Theres some fairly decent information on it in the build books and on the redline forums.

player_1

My lifters were fine, they were all checked.
I had the Bates Doul Springs, Retainers, and spring Seats.
with Ferrea, the Ferrea Spring seat is optional you can use the stock seats.

The Ferrea Spring seat would further increase the spring pressure, then you'd have to go to solid lifters, with the stock seat you still have increased spring pressure, but you can maintain the stock lifters.

last we checked all the lifters were fine, and showed no signs of wear.

Witt

Compare this spring pressure of the Ferrea's with the spring pressure of the Bates ESGV0002 that you installed.

StreetDreamz

imo there is absolutely no reason to rev to 8000 or even much past 7000 rpm. if ur motor is well set up with the right parts and tuning 300whp can be had at no more than 7000rpm. beyond that point ur asking the motor to do a lot on a daily basis that it doesnt need to. neutral balance shafts are a complete necesity at any point past 7400 rpm is what i believe GM had their information at. just because u rev higher doesnt mean u make more power. i am goin to stick my numbers in at 255/260...if even that. and mark my words u will see hpower drop off, not climb to that rpm. JBP has always been a joke in my book, even way back when people thought j-bodies were actually cool. lol. i would say stick to what they do best, but they cant even do that well.

player_1

the additional 1 mm would create a higher spring pressure then the Bates did which is why we had to use solid lifters, to prevent coil bind.
I used stock lifters without the additional spring seat.

I was there and we tested the JBP, Bates, and Ferrea. at compressed height the Bates looked like the stock springs.

here's a picture of the 3 spring togther


left to right: Bates, Ferrea, JBP look at the number of coils on the Bates.

you obviously don't understand the reason to having a higher shift point.
I agree, the power will drop before that, but that's not the point. the whole reason for bumping the limiter is to be able to drive on a lower gear for a longer period of time. guarantee that I'll make more power and accelerate faster then another car when I'm doing 7800RPM in 2nd then a car shifting into third at 4000RPM, at that same point.
why do you think the Civic SI is able to produce similar track times with less power. it has an 8K RPM limit.

changing your RPM limit beyond 7K isn't making your engine do anything more then it did before on a daily basis. it's only when you push your car hard. ( I don't know about you but I don't drive every gear to readline on a daily basis, I better way's to spend my money other thrn gas)

Neutral Balance shafts are not necessary. check the build book again they tuned that engine to 7800RPM, and they mentioned that neutral balance shaft would save you 10HP but they put in the stock one.

Your opinion on JBP is your opinion, and I leave it at that, but please save it for when it is asked, If you have any ideas as to what may be happening feel free to post, I'd be happy to hear it.
I don't need to hear JBP sucks, because that doesn't help me in any way.

Witt

What you are showing me in the pic and I think you're saying is that the Bates are indeed higher pressure than the Ferrea's, so I'm a little confused in why you are saying the Bates don't require solid lifters.

The Ferreas with the optional spring seat create a high pressure application which is rated for 210lbs at production lift. I think we all agree that those require solid lifters. The Bates dual coil ESGV0002 are rated for 250lbs at production lift and 350lb just short of coil bind height according to a phone call I placed to them about 3 months ago. How could 210lb springs require solid lifters but not 250s?

Edit: What are the specs that you were given when you bought the Bates Duals? Maybe thats where I'm confused if I was told the wrong pressures.

player_1

Bates told use there was no need for the solid lifters when I got them done, maybe now they've changed there story because of the springs they've had break.
either way my hydrolic lifters did not collaps or seize, it was an issue with the springs itself. maybe the new ones where fixed but after they sent me a revised spring and didn't tell me that they fixed the springs because of an issue. i decided not to stick with Bates.

they new they had a issue with the springs so they changed them, if someone calls in asking for a replacement because one of them broke, they should have told use right away that there was a revision and not wait for me to break three more.

besides i compared the old and new Bates springs and the older one that broke were so hard I couldn't compress them in my hand like the new ones.