Matt M

Since we are messing up the turbo manifold thread, I wanted to start a new one for our fuel system discussion.


If we were to design/sell a return-style fuel system, what features would you guys like to see?

What features are more important?

Price?
Performance?
Easier tuning?
Ease of install?
Factory look?
Flashy look?
Adjustability?
Versatility?

What do you guys think?

ShortStack

I think people like the idea OTTs kit dropped.. what was it.. 20 or 30 % IDCS.. And they saw those numbers, and they had proof, and they liked it...

Some people are willing to dish out that much money to ensure that their injectors aren't being over worked (according to logs taking by hptuners, which is what private tuners go by).

I wouldnt doubt it helped keep AFR's in check a little bit... making things a more constant flow.

Personally i think it looks sick under the hood.

Matt M

I assume that you are referring to people running more than 60psi fuel pressure(while under boost) and tuning back to the previous a/f ratio. Correct?

Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

An easy cheap way to lower IDC is to just raise fuel pressure but all you need for this is a different regulator. kit would be cheap and easy but you'd have to change injector constant to compensate.

Boost referenced kits are pretty easy to but only required when you're running more boost than the M62 can put out efficiently.

Regulators under the hood look good but I'd be afraid to answer all the tech support calls and emails when people tried to use it.

Witt

The ability to run higher pressure under boost, lower pressure under vacuum, keeping duty cycle in check, tuning using known and safe fuel injector settings (min. pulsewidth, injector voltage offsets, etc) while not having to compensate for fuel in an airflow table and not stressing a stock pump with increased voltage would be the reasons why people buy Josh's kit. Add the fact that its the end all upgrade for fueling as a return style setup with the proper fuel pump and a set of decent injectors, will outlast anything a streetable bottom end can require.

As I said (and coincidently what Josh sells) all thats required is the proper pump, two hoses and associated fittings, and a 1:1 adjustable fuel pressure regulator is all that is required.

Using an adjustable fuel pressure regulator is really that hard?

EXsoccer1921

iTrader: (14)

restonSS

i want an inexpensive turbo manifold! give me one! lolzzz

car_guy_09

*grabs popcorn*

This is gonna get good...

Dainslaif

The only thing you guys really can improve on over OTTP's return system product is maybe offering a canned tune for 60/42 injectors, and dropping the price significantly. $450 for a regulator, a filter, some fuel lines, and the bits and pieces sounds high, even considering a $150 profit.

Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

The problem is that you require a complete new tune if you have FP lower under vacuum and rise 1:1 with boost. The PCM is setup for a constant FP.

and yes using an adjustable regulator is hard. We sell them to a market much more educated than this one and take calls/emails all the time.
-"What's the best fuel pressure"
-"Why does it change when pull the vacuum line"
-What vacuum line to I connect to
-people that think more is better who set base FP high, then the pump can't keep up under boost cause the regulator is commanding 90 pounds and they can't tune their car.

These are just a few of the questions and that was in a market where people understand things I cannot get accross to this forum. You'd be amazed at the daily tech calls we field...

USMCFieldMP

iTrader: (1)

What color is it?

USMCFieldMP

iTrader: (1)

To add on to what ShortStack is saying... I think it is funny that none of the vendors really seemed to do much of anything for the Koby SS world... nothing the customers really wanted (Rotated Mounts, Return-Style System, etc etc etc). SOOOO a member and his brother started their own company... OTTP, and are making/selling all the **** that we've wanted for that past 2 or 3 years... and the only people that are ******* on them... are the vendors that have been around a while and are now on the back burner.

I'm surprised that Intense hasn't come on here posting their opinions.

Matt M

If we released a part that accomplished the same goal for a fraction of the price of their kit, then many would consider theirs a waste.

Try to look at it like this- They sell a return system with boost reference for $450. We sell a boost reference system for $150 that accomplishes the same goal. Now, if we sold a return system with boost reference for $150 (or close), then the ony thing that changes is that the customers have the option of saving a lot of money. Don't act like we're copying someone because we would obviously have to go about it completely different to achieve results for 1/3 the price.

In time many of you will reailze that ZZP is in it for the best interest of the community. We will offer countless products to help lower the overall cost of modding a vehicle to a certain level.

No one is ******* OTTP. From what I can tell, they sell nice parts. However, that doesn't mean that everyone needs them.

Witt

It will require a retune, however its easier to retune a vehicle for a 1:1 boost compensating return system than it is to retune for larger fuel injectors. The PCM is capable of both systems as a returnless system is setup to modify pulse width using manifold pressure as a reference. When fuel pressure has the same delta pressure as manifold, the PCM has less variables that it needs to establish correct pulse width.

I would hope the only people buying the kits are ones educated enough to understand what they are purchasing.

Deathscythe

Or be smart enough to get the information and understanding needed from someone who does. I have a return style system. I have someone knowledgeable that can explain things to me.

USMCFieldMP

iTrader: (1)

Ha, I remember my first beer.


******* (AKA Vendor Bashing):

Many a CobaltSS.net member has been banned or had threads deleted for Vendor Bashing like this.

djt81185

Well we dont have an injector constant...but Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you were implying the one table. But in actuality there are 2 tables you can use to make the necessary changes and either one, if done properly, for either a pure pressure increase that is not boost referenced or one that is will work without requiring a complete retune (as in all fueling tables and airflow tables)...but I would recommend it to take advantage of what you just installed.

I would applaud you if you could offer a system with the same high quality components for 1/3rd the price. Seeing the price of a high quality fpr I doubt you'd profit a whole lot and you would't include a new pump which is fine imo. I believe the stock pump isn't all that bad. But if I had problems keeping up fuel supply at the pressures my car runs, I'd have an issue. BTW Im still on a non return system and 79s (without new drivers as zooomer said I'd need) plug n play on the bosch harness.

06blackg85ss

iTrader: (1)

I just want to know how "educated" you need to be to run a 1:1 regulator. you set base fuel presure, hook up vaccum line, and you're done. I would think a partially retarded paralized monkey could do that.
But yet you continue to talk down to everyone..... I dunno, I can tell you this, I would never buy another part from you, nor would I ever recommend them to my customers.
Thanks and have a nice day.

ebristol

iTrader: (4)

At what boost levels should someone upgrade to boost referenced fuel pressure regulator?

I'm sure that is based off of several different variables because boost x does not always equal fuel demand y.

So the question should be asked...At what fuel demand level does someone need a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator?

Im sure there is no set GPH of fuel that applies to every vehicle so should the decision to upgrade be based of off IDCs? As soon as you get to an undesirable percent of IDCs is that the time to upgrade?

How much can the voltage to the stock pump be increased before it become unreliable?

So for all the questions.

USMCFieldMP

iTrader: (1)

Nice to see that ShortStacks post got Deleted.

Good thing I made copies.

blacksssc06

"I HEART OTTP" like i said good people good prices and i like to know why now is zzp trying to make a returnstyle fuel system ottp was the frist i mean im not busting just asking ?

Zooomer

iTrader: (1)

The PCM is setup to change fueling to 17.6# of boost so beyond that or much over that and you should have a boost referenced system.

The stock pump doesn't have a set voltage it will burn up at. The higher the voltage the more volume/pressure potential but also the more heat. It's cooled by fuel. We have gone over 20 volts short term on pumps and have yet to have one fail. I would recommend only
increasing voltage to supply the amount of fuel you need.
ZZP's boost reference fuel setup was done for our twin charged setup. As the market progresses we'll have many fueling solutions from mild to wild. There won't be a point at which we'll copy someone's part because we don't opperate like that.
I'm telling you that we've been in business for a while and we sell adjutable regulators, billet fuel logs, aftermarket fuel system, etc. From my experience being a vendor we field a lot of questions. Some products have more tech support than others and we monitor that. Adjustable regulators have a higher than average level of tech support. Again, I'm giving information that is just an honest fact. It has no emotion or bias, it's just a statement based on XXX # of XXX product sold and XXX # of calls/emails received about it.

If you think that I'm talking down to you, then that's on you. I respond specifically to comments made and technical data. If I say that goes against Bernoulli's principle and someone feels that I"m talking down to them, then that's on them, not me. Obviously if you know this principal or chose to learn it, then I wouldn't be speaking to you.

blacksssc06

no im not saying that but how much can we do to or fuel system??? your saying mild to wild now if you could offer like a nice ass custom fuelrail along with a return style fuel system kit for a good prices with proof it gains hp you got my vote zzp!

USMCFieldMP

iTrader: (1)

Usually updating your fuel system doesn't gain you HP... it gains you the ABILITY to gain hp, through tuning and further modification of the engine.

coopn8r

If you can get out a cheaper kit. Great. Amazing. Do it. It just seems like in every thread OTT gets brought up you non chalantly contradict or somehow try to degrade them. Could just be me seeing **** that's not there.

-cough OTT ftw cough-