went from 3" to 2.5" exhaust picked up 16hp
08-19-2008, 11:38 PM
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went from 3" to 2.5" exhaust picked up 16hp
got bored like usual, pulled out the lincoln and wanted to weld something...
started pondering ....... what can i weld.... so.....
i changed my exhaust... i put a 2.5" reducer in the tail pipe and picked up a peak of 16bhp on scanforce which is about 13.6whp with a 15% drivetrain loss... same day same conditions same temps iat-1 & 2.... i gained over 10hp accross the whole RPM band... can only imagine how much tq i gained since scanforce dosent monitor that... the 16 was down low like 3500-4000rpm
it's basically like a tuned pipe, kinda like a 2 stroke dirt bike exhaust but not as radical...lol
it's 3" H, DP, custom cut and weld mandrell 3" piping with 3" magnaflow round ss muffler as resonator to a 4x9 oval magnaflow race muffler out back...
to keep things simple and remember this was an experiment so i wanted to keep it easy to reverse, i cut the tip off welded a 3" to 2.5" reducer in and welded the tip back on....
took about 20-30 min...
i can only imagine the gains when i retune to a 11.7 AFR
3" FTL...... unless turbo...
it will only be staying for future plans of going turbo.... just thought i'd share... need a retune now though car's running in the high 10's AFR WOT when it was dialed at 11.7-8
i originally went with 3" cuz i figured i would see the most gains while spraying the smack... but i ended up hardly ever spraying, like seriously sprayed like twice once on the dyno and the clutch slipped at less than 10k mi... took the car home removed the bottle and never put it back in...
just thought i'de share.... comments... feel free to discuss...
started pondering ....... what can i weld.... so.....
i changed my exhaust... i put a 2.5" reducer in the tail pipe and picked up a peak of 16bhp on scanforce which is about 13.6whp with a 15% drivetrain loss... same day same conditions same temps iat-1 & 2.... i gained over 10hp accross the whole RPM band... can only imagine how much tq i gained since scanforce dosent monitor that... the 16 was down low like 3500-4000rpm
it's basically like a tuned pipe, kinda like a 2 stroke dirt bike exhaust but not as radical...lol
it's 3" H, DP, custom cut and weld mandrell 3" piping with 3" magnaflow round ss muffler as resonator to a 4x9 oval magnaflow race muffler out back...
to keep things simple and remember this was an experiment so i wanted to keep it easy to reverse, i cut the tip off welded a 3" to 2.5" reducer in and welded the tip back on....
took about 20-30 min...
i can only imagine the gains when i retune to a 11.7 AFR
3" FTL...... unless turbo...
it will only be staying for future plans of going turbo.... just thought i'd share... need a retune now though car's running in the high 10's AFR WOT when it was dialed at 11.7-8
i originally went with 3" cuz i figured i would see the most gains while spraying the smack... but i ended up hardly ever spraying, like seriously sprayed like twice once on the dyno and the clutch slipped at less than 10k mi... took the car home removed the bottle and never put it back in...
just thought i'de share.... comments... feel free to discuss...
Last edited by hungryhip-ccp; 08-20-2008 at 04:51 AM.
08-20-2008, 02:08 AM
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i know your going to kill me for this one but like i said a while back. bwsw214 unless his car is messed up and running rich for some weird reason on gm stage 2 tune. zzp catless dp and ark exhaust with the silencer taken out slowed down his car and also it was shooting flame *****. also ssdan's car i believe was slower than mine in the video i have proof same with bwsw214's balt. ssdan has stock dp gutted and ark exhaust. his car i think got slower and he might go back to stock exhaust. if you feel my whole post doesn't make sense which to me it even has still boggled my mind however i have seen it with my own eyes. bwsw214 ran me with catless dp + ark exhaust he was 3 cars slower. or so around there. then that day got the stock exhaust and stock dp put back in and we raced and it was tie. if you don't believe this which i know certain people think it's impossible at least you get to see a cool video of his car shooting flames.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/C...ame_143925.htm
also one last thing i think it is if your under 300whp and have a 3" exhaust on your car you loose power overall. i can understand with big power the 3" exhaust up top might not hurt it and down low it does. i am not really sure this is just my theory and this is why i am still on the stock exhaust and stock dp and stock header.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/C...ame_143925.htm
also one last thing i think it is if your under 300whp and have a 3" exhaust on your car you loose power overall. i can understand with big power the 3" exhaust up top might not hurt it and down low it does. i am not really sure this is just my theory and this is why i am still on the stock exhaust and stock dp and stock header.
08-20-2008, 03:15 AM
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i was very suprised to see the results.... it also did away with a tuning issue i was having... it would hesitate to go into pe no matter what the pe enrichment rate was... now it instantly goes into pe... very good to see... cause now im gonna be able to run more timing in the mid range were as before it was lagging going into pe causing some lean knock that i had to pull timing for.... im sure when your above 250 whp 2.5 is better than the 2.25 the stock axle back the cobalt comes equiped with... so i would reccomend mid-length header with stock piping with 2.5 axle back mod... for optimum results... but in my case the three in will serve its purpose when i go turbo...
it been argued on here for awhile weather 3" was overkill or not well... even with me pushing the 270whp envalope it was still "overkill" and i saw great gains.... well really not gaining just getting back what i lost...lol
it been argued on here for awhile weather 3" was overkill or not well... even with me pushing the 270whp envalope it was still "overkill" and i saw great gains.... well really not gaining just getting back what i lost...lol
Last edited by hungryhip-ccp; 08-20-2008 at 03:15 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
08-20-2008, 07:21 AM
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i honestly think many people on this forum go over board with there exhaust setup. Velocity of the exhaust gases are just as important the ability to flow. Velocity causes back pressure, back pressure causes scavanging, scavanging means more HP.
08-20-2008, 07:58 AM
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I'm putting a pacesetter header with 2.5" custom catless downpipe to my 2.5" cutout. Trust me, I did tons of research before I decided on what mods to do with my car and that's the best for the most power. Every mod I do to my car I scrutinize over before purchasing it.
08-20-2008, 09:06 AM
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true bruce didn't though. also him and i and you i would say it's safe to say we are around 255-265whp. estimate. also good example of running stock exhaust is Street Dreamz. car still works and he is running a 150 shot and just a sick tune. need i say more? also me i would say is a good example of never changing my exhaust setup other than putting a a catless zzp dp which made me slower for some reason and the engine light came on then a couple days later it blew apart at the flex pipe and put the stock dp back on.
08-20-2008, 09:14 AM
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well i'm keep my 3 inch cause i want to go twincharged
i still have my stock exhaust though i might be putting that back on
until im twincharged
i still have my stock exhaust though i might be putting that back on
until im twincharged
Last edited by heyitsmikey1987; 08-20-2008 at 09:14 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
08-20-2008, 09:16 AM
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oh, and hungryhip... i know what you mean about the spray, im pretty conservative with it as well... only on my second fill after almost two months... better to be that way than always standing on it... also, it costs money to fill and i see no reason to race every car i see. lol
08-20-2008, 09:26 AM
#11
backpressure slows down your exhaust velocity, which reduces the pressure of the exhaust pulses. lower pressure of the exhaust pulses means a lower velocity, in other words less air is flowing at the same engine efficiency.
but i do agree that the velocity is what's important.
the main thing that you want is the highest veolcity with the least resistance (backpressure) which will then help scavenging and make more power.
08-20-2008, 09:37 AM
#12
Geeee who woulda thunk it! How long have I said that 3 inch exhaust is hurting you guys performance? I know since the first one of you with a sub 300 hp car put it on and said "LOOK AT ME!" Too many serious car builders have said this for years for it to be wrong, hell Hot Rod and Car Craft did MANY a write up on 3inch VS. 2.5 inch when it first hit the main stream. Glad to see someone finialy realizing it.
08-20-2008, 10:16 AM
#14
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Good Read i found online while looking more into this
Although the advent of stainless steel exhaust systems has reduced the number of exhaust system replacements, regular exhaust system inspections remain an integral part of vehicle service opportunities in the modern-day tire dealership.
First things first. Before inspecting an exhaust system, tire dealers and technicians need to understand the basic function of an exhaust pipe and muffler. Together, these components should:
• Help “tune” the engine for peak performance
• Reduce noise to legal levels
• Meet current emissions requirements
• Safely vent exhaust gases away from the passenger compartment
If the exhaust system fails one or more of these tasks, it’s a clear candidate for service or replacement.
Exhaust Science
Many modern engines use a “tuned” exhaust to improve the volumetric efficiency of a high-performance engine. The operating principle is simple in concept: When exhaust gases exit the exhaust port at very high velocities, a mild vacuum is created in the cylinder. Engine builders therefore use intake and exhaust valve timing to take advantage of this vacuum effect to increase the intake charge of air and fuel entering the cylinder.
Since most of the torque generated by the combustion process takes place by 90 degrees after top dead center (TDC), the exhaust valve usually begins to open before bottom dead center on the power stroke. The residual combustion pressure in the cylinder is then released into the exhaust port, through the exhaust system, and into the atmosphere.
In most naturally aspirated applications, the intake valve is timed to open a few degrees before the piston reaches TDC on the exhaust stroke. When the piston reaches TDC, both exhaust and intake valves are open, which results in valve timing “overlap.” The mild vacuum created by the pulse of exhaust gas exiting the exhaust manifold and header pipe will accelerate the air/fuel mixture entering the cylinder. This acceleration effect is called “exhaust scavenging,” and is used to a great effect in naturally aspirated engine designs. The result of this is more efficient use of fuel and optimized engine performance.
Of course, exhaust scavenging is highly dependent upon the engine speed and the overall efficiency of the intake system, camshaft valve timing and the exhaust system. Too much scavenging results in raw fuel being drawn into the exhaust system, which increases hydrocarbon emissions. Too little scavenging, on the other hand, results in poor high-speed engine performance.
Diagnostic Summary
Engine speed, exhaust gas volume and exhaust gas velocities are the determinants of exhaust system performance. As a rule of thumb, engines operating below 4,000 rpm tolerate a certain amount of exhaust restriction, while engines operating at 4,000 rpm and beyond may become very sensitive to exhaust system tuning and gas flow restrictions.
Measuring exhaust system back pressure is one method of analyzing exhaust system performance. Several methods include using a vacuum gauge to measure intake manifold vacuum as the engine is held at a steady-throttle 2,500 rpm. Keep in mind that this method isn’t valid for turbocharged engines because the turbocharger may drastically reduce intake manifold vacuum readings.
While there’s no fixed specification, most technicians suspect an exhaust restriction exists when a drop greater than 10% of the idle speed reading occurs on naturally aspirated engines.
On both turbo and naturally aspirated engines, actual exhaust system pressure can be measured by removing an oxygen sensor and inserting a pressure-tapping tool directly into the exhaust manifold or pipe. In most cases, the exhaust pressure shouldn’t exceed 2 psi at 2,500 rpm.
During a full-throttle road test, 6 psi is the general limit. Of course, it’s important to develop some experience with exhaust back pressure testing before recommending exhaust service to the customer. A technician might find, for example, that engines with mild valve overlap may operate very well at 6 psi exhaust back pressure. In other applications with increased valve overlap, high-speed performance may begin to suffer at 6 psi of exhaust back pressure.
In most cases, exhaust back pressure is caused by the catalytic converter disintegrating and clogging the converter and muffler outlets. In rare cases, a baffle can detach inside the muffler and block the muffler outlet.
In other rare instances, the header pipe from the exhaust manifold may be a dual-wall design in which the inner tube has collapsed and restricted the exhaust. In the most common cases of exhaust restriction, the exhaust pipe has simply been bent or crushed due to collision damage.
Import Performance Exhaust
Since building high-performance import engines has become the latest trend in the import aftermarket, independent tire dealerships may find themselves with a request to install a tuned exhaust system. Tuned exhaust headers especially come to mind when dealing with the tuner market.
When selecting a tuned exhaust header for a vehicle, it’s important to understand that the cheapest header won’t necessarily be the most durable or easiest to install. The most expensive, brand-name units are dynamometer-based and designed to last many miles.
Most use heavy flange materials to prevent exhaust port leakage and may be constructed with ceramic-coated, heavy-gauge steel tubes that resist corrosion and minor impact damage. In most cases, the brand-name header usually benefits from increased product development times.
When choosing a performance header, tire dealers need to keep in mind that larger tube diameters are effective only if an engine is highly modified. Smaller tube diameters increase the scavenge effect at lower engine speeds by maintaining high exhaust gas velocities through the header pipe. Increasing the pipe size merely slows the exhaust gas flow, which reduces the mid-range scavenging effect.
Working from the header back, remember that a catalytic converter in good operating condition is usually the least restrictive part of the exhaust system. Most horsepower gains are obtained by installing larger diameter pipe sizes and performance mufflers from the catalytic converter to the back of the vehicle. A 1.5-inch diameter pipe, for example, has 1.767 square inches of area. A 1.625-inch pipe, on the other hand, has 2.074 square inches of area. The 8% increase in pipe diameter provides a 17% increase in pipe area.
Better still for the installer, some performance exhaust systems may be supplied in the form of kits, complete from engine to rear bumper. In other cases, an installer must hand-bend a performance system. In so doing, he must allow enough body clearance in order to prevent the pipe or muffler from contacting the body panels as it changes dimensions due to heat expansion.
Although the advent of stainless steel exhaust systems has reduced the number of exhaust system replacements, regular exhaust system inspections remain an integral part of vehicle service opportunities in the modern-day tire dealership.
First things first. Before inspecting an exhaust system, tire dealers and technicians need to understand the basic function of an exhaust pipe and muffler. Together, these components should:
• Help “tune” the engine for peak performance
• Reduce noise to legal levels
• Meet current emissions requirements
• Safely vent exhaust gases away from the passenger compartment
If the exhaust system fails one or more of these tasks, it’s a clear candidate for service or replacement.
Exhaust Science
Many modern engines use a “tuned” exhaust to improve the volumetric efficiency of a high-performance engine. The operating principle is simple in concept: When exhaust gases exit the exhaust port at very high velocities, a mild vacuum is created in the cylinder. Engine builders therefore use intake and exhaust valve timing to take advantage of this vacuum effect to increase the intake charge of air and fuel entering the cylinder.
Since most of the torque generated by the combustion process takes place by 90 degrees after top dead center (TDC), the exhaust valve usually begins to open before bottom dead center on the power stroke. The residual combustion pressure in the cylinder is then released into the exhaust port, through the exhaust system, and into the atmosphere.
In most naturally aspirated applications, the intake valve is timed to open a few degrees before the piston reaches TDC on the exhaust stroke. When the piston reaches TDC, both exhaust and intake valves are open, which results in valve timing “overlap.” The mild vacuum created by the pulse of exhaust gas exiting the exhaust manifold and header pipe will accelerate the air/fuel mixture entering the cylinder. This acceleration effect is called “exhaust scavenging,” and is used to a great effect in naturally aspirated engine designs. The result of this is more efficient use of fuel and optimized engine performance.
Of course, exhaust scavenging is highly dependent upon the engine speed and the overall efficiency of the intake system, camshaft valve timing and the exhaust system. Too much scavenging results in raw fuel being drawn into the exhaust system, which increases hydrocarbon emissions. Too little scavenging, on the other hand, results in poor high-speed engine performance.
Diagnostic Summary
Engine speed, exhaust gas volume and exhaust gas velocities are the determinants of exhaust system performance. As a rule of thumb, engines operating below 4,000 rpm tolerate a certain amount of exhaust restriction, while engines operating at 4,000 rpm and beyond may become very sensitive to exhaust system tuning and gas flow restrictions.
Measuring exhaust system back pressure is one method of analyzing exhaust system performance. Several methods include using a vacuum gauge to measure intake manifold vacuum as the engine is held at a steady-throttle 2,500 rpm. Keep in mind that this method isn’t valid for turbocharged engines because the turbocharger may drastically reduce intake manifold vacuum readings.
While there’s no fixed specification, most technicians suspect an exhaust restriction exists when a drop greater than 10% of the idle speed reading occurs on naturally aspirated engines.
On both turbo and naturally aspirated engines, actual exhaust system pressure can be measured by removing an oxygen sensor and inserting a pressure-tapping tool directly into the exhaust manifold or pipe. In most cases, the exhaust pressure shouldn’t exceed 2 psi at 2,500 rpm.
During a full-throttle road test, 6 psi is the general limit. Of course, it’s important to develop some experience with exhaust back pressure testing before recommending exhaust service to the customer. A technician might find, for example, that engines with mild valve overlap may operate very well at 6 psi exhaust back pressure. In other applications with increased valve overlap, high-speed performance may begin to suffer at 6 psi of exhaust back pressure.
In most cases, exhaust back pressure is caused by the catalytic converter disintegrating and clogging the converter and muffler outlets. In rare cases, a baffle can detach inside the muffler and block the muffler outlet.
In other rare instances, the header pipe from the exhaust manifold may be a dual-wall design in which the inner tube has collapsed and restricted the exhaust. In the most common cases of exhaust restriction, the exhaust pipe has simply been bent or crushed due to collision damage.
Import Performance Exhaust
Since building high-performance import engines has become the latest trend in the import aftermarket, independent tire dealerships may find themselves with a request to install a tuned exhaust system. Tuned exhaust headers especially come to mind when dealing with the tuner market.
When selecting a tuned exhaust header for a vehicle, it’s important to understand that the cheapest header won’t necessarily be the most durable or easiest to install. The most expensive, brand-name units are dynamometer-based and designed to last many miles.
Most use heavy flange materials to prevent exhaust port leakage and may be constructed with ceramic-coated, heavy-gauge steel tubes that resist corrosion and minor impact damage. In most cases, the brand-name header usually benefits from increased product development times.
When choosing a performance header, tire dealers need to keep in mind that larger tube diameters are effective only if an engine is highly modified. Smaller tube diameters increase the scavenge effect at lower engine speeds by maintaining high exhaust gas velocities through the header pipe. Increasing the pipe size merely slows the exhaust gas flow, which reduces the mid-range scavenging effect.
Working from the header back, remember that a catalytic converter in good operating condition is usually the least restrictive part of the exhaust system. Most horsepower gains are obtained by installing larger diameter pipe sizes and performance mufflers from the catalytic converter to the back of the vehicle. A 1.5-inch diameter pipe, for example, has 1.767 square inches of area. A 1.625-inch pipe, on the other hand, has 2.074 square inches of area. The 8% increase in pipe diameter provides a 17% increase in pipe area.
Better still for the installer, some performance exhaust systems may be supplied in the form of kits, complete from engine to rear bumper. In other cases, an installer must hand-bend a performance system. In so doing, he must allow enough body clearance in order to prevent the pipe or muffler from contacting the body panels as it changes dimensions due to heat expansion.
08-20-2008, 03:42 PM
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Ive been saying it all along,3" is overkill on our cars unless your running a turbo.I remember a post ways back where everyone was on the 3" exhaust bandwagon.Unless ur pushing 300+ hp,2.5" is more than adaquate.
08-20-2008, 07:09 PM
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thanks for all the input guys.... i was really suprised by the results... cant wait to retune and then post better more accurate results...
08-26-2008, 12:22 PM
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I'll go as low to say 220-250 hp would be the lowest for a 3" exhaust. (for optimal backpressure) Once you start pushing that much air out of a 2.5" its just obnoxiously loud unless you restrict w/ resonators etc.
I just love though to see a POS Civic or other import trash driving around w/ 4" piping header back & a folgers coffee can fart cannon. I'll stick to my 2.5" header back (including exhaust tip). Magnaflow 2.5 mufflers give that rumble but still lets ya know its alive after about 5k on the tach.
Look at the stock piping of a Corvette, its not 8" People put too much emphasis on Horsepower to exhaust size when the correlation really isn't that big of a deal. You go from a stock cobalt 2.2 . Put on an air intake to let it breathe a bit more, ANY increase will flow better than the weenie pipe it comes w/ stock. Fine tuning is where exhaust size comes into play, you can tune your car to run better w/ a 2.5 or 3.
Restriction kills your horsepower, aka small pipes. However going over kill like a 1.6 liter w/ 4" piping causes backpressure. AKA restriction. My general rule of thumb is to have somebody press your throttle down and hold your hand -BY- the back of the exhaust, you want a good bit but if it feels like its coming out of a straw you need bigger pipe. If you really dont feel that much exhaust coming out you went too big.
Briggs & Stratton is > VTEC
I just love though to see a POS Civic or other import trash driving around w/ 4" piping header back & a folgers coffee can fart cannon. I'll stick to my 2.5" header back (including exhaust tip). Magnaflow 2.5 mufflers give that rumble but still lets ya know its alive after about 5k on the tach.
Look at the stock piping of a Corvette, its not 8" People put too much emphasis on Horsepower to exhaust size when the correlation really isn't that big of a deal. You go from a stock cobalt 2.2 . Put on an air intake to let it breathe a bit more, ANY increase will flow better than the weenie pipe it comes w/ stock. Fine tuning is where exhaust size comes into play, you can tune your car to run better w/ a 2.5 or 3.
Restriction kills your horsepower, aka small pipes. However going over kill like a 1.6 liter w/ 4" piping causes backpressure. AKA restriction. My general rule of thumb is to have somebody press your throttle down and hold your hand -BY- the back of the exhaust, you want a good bit but if it feels like its coming out of a straw you need bigger pipe. If you really dont feel that much exhaust coming out you went too big.
Briggs & Stratton is > VTEC
Last edited by RyanRacer48; 08-26-2008 at 01:39 PM. Reason: have to spell everything out or 12 year old bash you.
08-26-2008, 12:59 PM
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um i will basically disagree with everything you just said... but im not gonna argue... it seems like you might be that type, the way your bashing honda's and all... go ahead and stick to your covering up the exhaust rule of thumb 
08-26-2008, 01:23 PM
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Well... does anyone agree to the fact that im pushing out so much air, it makes my exhaust loud... mine is too loud and ricey, i understand the pacesetter i guess wasnt a good choice, but it was cheap...
Could this be part of reason?
Could this be part of reason?
08-26-2008, 01:32 PM
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Hey man everybody is entitled to their opinion. My LS cobalt beats every other closely modded balt at a few different tracks sooo . I'd say what I'm doing is working. I suppose your one of those ricers w/ a fart cannon on a 1.6 CRX lol . Take your Hondas back to Japan. THEY SUCK!
I insist hungry hungry hippo . . elaborate just dont tell me I'm wrong w/o substantiating yourself. Theres no way your gonna win the eating race doin that
I insist hungry hungry hippo . . elaborate just dont tell me I'm wrong w/o substantiating yourself. Theres no way your gonna win the eating race doin that
Last edited by RyanRacer48; 08-26-2008 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
08-26-2008, 01:34 PM
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***
***
Yes pace setter exhausts sound horrible. I'm about to find out if the pace setter headers are just as bad lol.. Its goin in in a week or so as soon as my mechanic friend comes back from vacation.
***
Yes pace setter exhausts sound horrible. I'm about to find out if the pace setter headers are just as bad lol.. Its goin in in a week or so as soon as my mechanic friend comes back from vacation.
08-26-2008, 01:36 PM
#25
your exhaust sounds like crap because of the pacesetter. has nothing to do with the amount of air. there's a reason why it's so cheap. actually there's several reasons. but yea, it sounds like crap.