would this be considered normal.
05-11-2008, 11:52 PM
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would this be considered normal.
Whats up Guys,
I have done a search but cant find an answer for my question. First question. Is it possible to get no knock retard?
I have tried gapping the plugs(within 1 hour of each other) to .035,.040, and .037, which is the best out of them and is where the data below came from. Here is what I am getting as far as knock retard with the ngk 7es(measured with interceptor gauge on a 3rd gear pull starting at about 2500 rpms):
rpm----knock retard
4896---1.0(first sign of knock retard)
5123---0.3
5194---4.5 then gradually falls to 0.0 at 5933
5297---2.8
5403---2.1
5547---1.4
5682---0.7
5769---0.3
5933---0.0
6794---0.3 then falls to 0.0 at 6868
6868---0.0
2nd question is would these numbers be considered normal because I know everyone is going to see some knock at one point or another. But is 4.5 considered Low or High?
Would going to a ngk 2 heat range colder help? Or should I just try setting that gap to .030-.034 to see if that eliminates it?
when I get back from vacation I am going to buy and install a cx racing heat exchanger and I know that will help a tad.
Thanks for your input and sorry if the questions seem like noob questions.
I have done a search but cant find an answer for my question. First question. Is it possible to get no knock retard?
I have tried gapping the plugs(within 1 hour of each other) to .035,.040, and .037, which is the best out of them and is where the data below came from. Here is what I am getting as far as knock retard with the ngk 7es(measured with interceptor gauge on a 3rd gear pull starting at about 2500 rpms):
rpm----knock retard
4896---1.0(first sign of knock retard)
5123---0.3
5194---4.5 then gradually falls to 0.0 at 5933
5297---2.8
5403---2.1
5547---1.4
5682---0.7
5769---0.3
5933---0.0
6794---0.3 then falls to 0.0 at 6868
6868---0.0
2nd question is would these numbers be considered normal because I know everyone is going to see some knock at one point or another. But is 4.5 considered Low or High?
Would going to a ngk 2 heat range colder help? Or should I just try setting that gap to .030-.034 to see if that eliminates it?
when I get back from vacation I am going to buy and install a cx racing heat exchanger and I know that will help a tad.
Thanks for your input and sorry if the questions seem like noob questions.
05-12-2008, 12:03 AM
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What is your AFR at? What octane are you running? I see no knock (other than tip in from my mounts) while I'm running 93 octane @ 11.3:1 AFR, unless it gets below 30 degrees. But if I run 91 in my car (thank god I don't have to where I live now), I get it in little blips through the whole rpm range during wot.
If you are running 93 octane and a reasonable AFR, you might want to have your tOoN tweaked. Back off a little on timing and make sure your AFR stays flat.
If you are running 93 octane and a reasonable AFR, you might want to have your tOoN tweaked. Back off a little on timing and make sure your AFR stays flat.
05-12-2008, 12:50 AM
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I run 93 octane and my afr is like this(last dyno run before the tune)
2173-----14.2
2273-2373-----13.9-13.4
2473-3873-----12.9-12.1
3973-6373-----11.9(bounces between 11.8,11.7,11.6,11.5)
But I will be dynoing again this weekend.
2173-----14.2
2273-2373-----13.9-13.4
2473-3873-----12.9-12.1
3973-6373-----11.9(bounces between 11.8,11.7,11.6,11.5)
But I will be dynoing again this weekend.
05-12-2008, 01:03 AM
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Your way to lean early on and stay kinda lean through the whole range. Your not running meth so you wanna richen it up a bit.
Your best bet would be to get some work done on your VE and MAF tables, then get your car dialed in to a nice flat 11.3~11.5:1 with the PE enrichment turned off to get your AFR down faster. After all thats done, then you can begin tweaking your timing.
Your best bet would be to get some work done on your VE and MAF tables, then get your car dialed in to a nice flat 11.3~11.5:1 with the PE enrichment turned off to get your AFR down faster. After all thats done, then you can begin tweaking your timing.
05-12-2008, 02:12 AM
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Your way to lean early on and stay kinda lean through the whole range. Your not running meth so you wanna richen it up a bit.
Your best bet would be to get some work done on your VE and MAF tables, then get your car dialed in to a nice flat 11.3~11.5:1 with the PE enrichment turned off to get your AFR down faster. After all thats done, then you can begin tweaking your timing.
Your best bet would be to get some work done on your VE and MAF tables, then get your car dialed in to a nice flat 11.3~11.5:1 with the PE enrichment turned off to get your AFR down faster. After all thats done, then you can begin tweaking your timing.
Here's the other thing, the AFRs bouncing can cause this. If you go into PE and you are running through the rpm band, getting 11.5 and you hit a cell that's off a bit and your AFR jumps to 11.8 or 11.9, this could cause this. At that point, working on the MAF may help to take the knock away, but if that little bit makes a differnce, you are on the fringe, and should prolly drop a degree or so to be safe. Also, I'd be interested to know what your AIT2s were during the run. AFRs will do wierd things on dynos sometimes. His AFRs are prolly fine on the street. His tuner knows his ****.
05-12-2008, 02:27 AM
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^^^
Well in my first post, I did say to double check his AFR and back off a lil on timing.
*Edit*
A wide band so you could check your AFR on the street would help a great deal.
Well in my first post, I did say to double check his AFR and back off a lil on timing.
*Edit*
A wide band so you could check your AFR on the street would help a great deal.
05-12-2008, 02:38 AM
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and I agree on the WB
Last edited by SJSchafer; 05-12-2008 at 02:38 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
05-12-2008, 03:03 AM
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I disagree. His lean numbers are low enough in the rpm band to be okay. Where he is seeing knock, he is between 11.8 and 11.5. Pretty well tuned AFRs for a dyno pull. The 1* at 4898, I wouldn't concern myself with too much. I would, however pull a degree or 2 of timing in the .84 through 1.04 g/cyl areas from 5120 through 5632 rpms. This is a guestimate as I have not seen a log.
Here's the other thing, the AFRs bouncing can cause this. If you go into PE and you are running through the rpm band, getting 11.5 and you hit a cell that's off a bit and your AFR jumps to 11.8 or 11.9, this could cause this. At that point, working on the MAF may help to take the knock away, but if that little bit makes a differnce, you are on the fringe, and should prolly drop a degree or so to be safe. Also, I'd be interested to know what your AIT2s were during the run. AFRs will do wierd things on dynos sometimes. His AFRs are prolly fine on the street. His tuner knows his ****.
Here's the other thing, the AFRs bouncing can cause this. If you go into PE and you are running through the rpm band, getting 11.5 and you hit a cell that's off a bit and your AFR jumps to 11.8 or 11.9, this could cause this. At that point, working on the MAF may help to take the knock away, but if that little bit makes a differnce, you are on the fringe, and should prolly drop a degree or so to be safe. Also, I'd be interested to know what your AIT2s were during the run. AFRs will do wierd things on dynos sometimes. His AFRs are prolly fine on the street. His tuner knows his ****.
^^^^
lmao
05-12-2008, 11:16 AM
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I disagree. His lean numbers are low enough in the rpm band to be okay. Where he is seeing knock, he is between 11.8 and 11.5. Pretty well tuned AFRs for a dyno pull. The 1* at 4898, I wouldn't concern myself with too much. I would, however pull a degree or 2 of timing in the .84 through 1.04 g/cyl areas from 5120 through 5632 rpms. This is a guestimate as I have not seen a log.
Here's the other thing, the AFRs bouncing can cause this. If you go into PE and you are running through the rpm band, getting 11.5 and you hit a cell that's off a bit and your AFR jumps to 11.8 or 11.9, this could cause this. At that point, working on the MAF may help to take the knock away, but if that little bit makes a differnce, you are on the fringe, and should prolly drop a degree or so to be safe. Also, I'd be interested to know what your AIT2s were during the run. AFRs will do wierd things on dynos sometimes. His AFRs are prolly fine on the street. His tuner knows his ****.
Here's the other thing, the AFRs bouncing can cause this. If you go into PE and you are running through the rpm band, getting 11.5 and you hit a cell that's off a bit and your AFR jumps to 11.8 or 11.9, this could cause this. At that point, working on the MAF may help to take the knock away, but if that little bit makes a differnce, you are on the fringe, and should prolly drop a degree or so to be safe. Also, I'd be interested to know what your AIT2s were during the run. AFRs will do wierd things on dynos sometimes. His AFRs are prolly fine on the street. His tuner knows his ****.
05-12-2008, 11:20 AM
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05-12-2008, 11:24 AM
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it would be a start, but you don't have to reduce timing across such a broad load cell range. just the range that lights up the pretty blue colors via the histogram.
if a car is knocking 4 degree's. pull 2
if a car is knocking 1.5 pull .5
then again. my timing idea's apparently only work in kansas city
if a car is knocking 4 degree's. pull 2
if a car is knocking 1.5 pull .5
then again. my timing idea's apparently only work in kansas city
05-12-2008, 11:33 AM
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it would be a start, but you don't have to reduce timing across such a broad load cell range. just the range that lights up the pretty blue colors via the histogram.
if a car is knocking 4 degree's. pull 2
if a car is knocking 1.5 pull .5
then again. my timing idea's apparently only work in kansas city
if a car is knocking 4 degree's. pull 2
if a car is knocking 1.5 pull .5
then again. my timing idea's apparently only work in kansas city
Yea, like I said, the range was a guestimate as we don't have the benefit of a histo on this little issue.
05-12-2008, 12:35 PM
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if I tried knocking my spark plug gap down to the .030-.034 range. could that help? I havent tried that. and these afr numbers probably arent to accurate as I have had hptuners done since. I am having the car dynoed again this weekend and will post the new numbers.
05-12-2008, 02:01 PM
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That will help with spark blow out, but I haven't heard anything to suggest that's your problem.
05-12-2008, 02:42 PM
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Sorry to thread jack, but I'm confused now.
As far as I can tell, when I enable the MAF on my car it doesn't use the VE tables at all. I spent several days playing with the VE tables and nothing was happening, finally set it all back to where I had it to begin with and started played with the MAF calibration and things started happening. Do I have something really messed up in my tune or is the VE only there for backup if the MAF fails? The other problem I have is when I can only tune AFR with the MAF calibration the resolution leaves something to desire and my AF jumps around a lot within 1 cell of the MAF calibration. Using VE I can get the AFR almost dead on, but when I fail the MAF and start running just on VE I get tons of KR (mainly when first hitting the gas) and the AFR stays right where it should be, either ~14.7 cruising or 11.3-11.5 in PE.
Any thoughts?
To the OP, my car didn't seem to run as well with any of the gaps I tried before .033. I tried .040, .035, .030, .037, and .033. On .033 my car has the least KR of any of the gaps I tried, I can't explain why it would work that way but it seems to work for me so I would say give it a try and see what happens.
(Yes I am a complete n00b at tuning still
)
As far as I can tell, when I enable the MAF on my car it doesn't use the VE tables at all. I spent several days playing with the VE tables and nothing was happening, finally set it all back to where I had it to begin with and started played with the MAF calibration and things started happening. Do I have something really messed up in my tune or is the VE only there for backup if the MAF fails? The other problem I have is when I can only tune AFR with the MAF calibration the resolution leaves something to desire and my AF jumps around a lot within 1 cell of the MAF calibration. Using VE I can get the AFR almost dead on, but when I fail the MAF and start running just on VE I get tons of KR (mainly when first hitting the gas) and the AFR stays right where it should be, either ~14.7 cruising or 11.3-11.5 in PE.
Any thoughts?
To the OP, my car didn't seem to run as well with any of the gaps I tried before .033. I tried .040, .035, .030, .037, and .033. On .033 my car has the least KR of any of the gaps I tried, I can't explain why it would work that way but it seems to work for me so I would say give it a try and see what happens.
(Yes I am a complete n00b at tuning still
)
05-12-2008, 02:45 PM
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Sorry to thread jack, but I'm confused now.
As far as I can tell, when I enable the MAF on my car it doesn't use the VE tables at all. I spent several days playing with the VE tables and nothing was happening, finally set it all back to where I had it to begin with and started played with the MAF calibration and things started happening. Do I have something really messed up in my tune or is the VE only there for backup if the MAF fails? The other problem I have is when I can only tune AFR with the MAF calibration the resolution leaves something to desire and my AF jumps around a lot within 1 cell of the MAF calibration. Using VE I can get the AFR almost dead on, but when I fail the MAF and start running just on VE I get tons of KR (mainly when first hitting the gas) and the AFR stays right where it should be, either ~14.7 cruising or 11.3-11.5 in PE.
Any thoughts?
As far as I can tell, when I enable the MAF on my car it doesn't use the VE tables at all. I spent several days playing with the VE tables and nothing was happening, finally set it all back to where I had it to begin with and started played with the MAF calibration and things started happening. Do I have something really messed up in my tune or is the VE only there for backup if the MAF fails? The other problem I have is when I can only tune AFR with the MAF calibration the resolution leaves something to desire and my AF jumps around a lot within 1 cell of the MAF calibration. Using VE I can get the AFR almost dead on, but when I fail the MAF and start running just on VE I get tons of KR (mainly when first hitting the gas) and the AFR stays right where it should be, either ~14.7 cruising or 11.3-11.5 in PE.
Any thoughts?
05-12-2008, 11:31 PM
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all the gaps i tried earlier under .035 gave me mad KR so i put it back to .037.i contacted the guy that tuned me and he said that he would retune and mess with timing and what not to try and get rid of it.
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