Old Man

Before I pass a judgement I'd like a few questions answered first.

What is the size of the 2.2 Throttle Body and the size of the 2.4 one?
What size is the outlet, collector, of this new exhaust mani?
Pipe diameter of the new downpipe?

I doubt you've hit the limit of the ECM based upon what I know of GM ECM's in general.

blktrax

Money makes the world go round.

57mm vs 65mm
2.25" That’s all the material I had to remove without significantly weakening the flange.
2.75" reduced to 2.5" at the "cat-back" joint

Granted these are rounded numbers
And I did the same thing redline24 did and I used a 12" long carbide bit and worked on the entire length of the runner as best I could reach.
https://www.cobaltss.net/gallery/bro...3&userid=15277

Old Man

Ok, lets see if I can do this.

134CI motor needs:

6500RPMx134/3456x1.1= 277CFM

57mm bore at 25" flows roughly 550CFMx85% ( Throttle plate etc area useage )= 467CFM
65mm bore, yada, yada, yada= over 500 CFM

Throttle body increase may have slowed the velocity of the air entering, which in turn could hinder performance. The stock TB was good enough because you only need 1 1/2-2 times motor requirements.

Exhaust is straight out a killer.
Internal sizing of the pipes should NEVER exceed the collector diameter, EVER.
When this happens you have now made a expansion area within the exhaust for the gases to expand in which in turn slows the velocity. Even though you cut it down in size back further, as exhaust moves away from the engine its size, due to cooling contracts.

XM15

^^^Good post. +rep

Old Man

BLKTRAX

Another question I guess to figure out the intake deal.

Comparing the 2 intake, runner lengths the same???
Plenum sizes the same???
I believe the difference is the runner diameters for the most part.

XM15

Runner lengths are pretty similar but the plenum on the 2.4 is bigger and the runner diameters are significantly larger.

Old Man

Ok, if that is the case I know why it does what it does.
The larger diameter runner and lightly larger plenum is killing the air velocity, which is taking out the bottom end. But at the top end the velocity begins to return, so the larger overall volume of the thing is adding to the top end.

Its all most apparent thats its a no win situation for dragging and street driving. Your giving up as much on the low end as you are gaining on the top end. This would be a decent gain if you drove rally style all the time. So you gain dyno numbers to impress, but I highly doubt you'd gain much 1/4 style.

Seems to me if someone wanted to do something really better, a shorter runner with a larger plenum would have the same result up top or better, but also a better bottom end.

shawn672

agreed ^. someone should custom fab an intake that has a shorter runner with a large plenum.

But..I would say, CED's intake is primarily only for drag racing. B/c when you drag, you're almost Never below 4000-4500. So basically it shifts your power curve to give you more high end, most people go thro 3 gears in the 1/4

So 1st gear, you lose 10whp, 2nd you gain 13, 3rd you gain 13
13+13-10= 16whp gained in the 1/4 run

is this making sense?



maybe they also hit the so-called "152 wall"..."CED's Kit 2.4 Kit Intake manifold HP Best: 151.73 @ 6300"

if you could find some tuning, hell, you might even get another 5-10whp just from the intake mani alone.
see where the dyno sheet goes from 6000-6300ish:
http://www.crateenginedepot.com/stor...odhp_large.jpg

it kinda just evens out, gains 2-3whp and then stops. you should be gaining at least 10-15whp between 6000 and shift point

blktrax

The TB may have slowed air velocity but the result with it resulted in a 1 to 1.5 leaner a/f condition all they way acorss an already pig rich dyno run.
The added surface area of the throttle blade also made for much more instantainous throttle response.

I understand what you're saying about the pipe but these are stock on the SS/SC the DP has a 3in flex joint that bolts to the collector flange, I aggree this makes for and extreamly turbulent area in the exhaust, I opened the collector and chamfered the outlet as much as I felt comfortable with.

Here is a stock SS/SC manifold, as you can see there is almost a half inch of flange materal all the way around to show how wide the flex joint is on the DP.


First part, exactly.

Second Part - I autocross mostly, and it doesnt bother me to get it when I need it on the street. I live at 4500+ unless cruising. All I did was the research and share the information, what companies don't publish dyno numbers to impress?

Third part - availability, engineering, capital, funds.

I aggree with everything you've said, but that still leaves me believing the restrictions still are with the computer and head flow. My opinion being even with essentially the ideal exaust system with no turbulence. The intake manifold has the biggest trade off between the jaggedly put together 3 part 2.2 manifold and the one part 2.4 with long smooth runners.

I would like to see someone break 160 with bolt on parts, or at least match the 150 and have a broader tq curve, then I'd believe its the hardware not the software.

I'm not going into this too much, but I reiterate again,

The point of my research is using ALL GM parts and available hardware. If another company researched and devloped something better , that would be great for us 2.2 and even the 2.4 guys.
(WITH the exception of tuning IF it ever becomes available)
I will not use any type of harness splicing tuning system on this car while the 5yr 100k powertrain warranty is in effect.


There is no perfect modification, there are trade off's to everything.

blktrax

Stock v 2.4 Intake Manifold Install

.

Pre 2.4 Throttle Body SS/SC manifold, and SS/SC Down Pipe




Installed 2.4 Throttle Body, SS/SC Exhaust Manifold, and SS/SC Down Pipe
*Green line was a 3rd gear Pull
It was +10 Degrees ambient temp, 30% more humidity, 1kpa less barometric pressure than the previous runs.

Old Man

BLKTRAX, I applaud the effort, numbers mean so much and I'm trying to read between the lines to try for myself, determine whats going on and why so dont take it as a attack.

So some more questions.

You say it was running rich/richer than it should have been.
Was this after the exhaust and before the TB I take it?

Headers and larger downpipes have always made vehicles equipped with 02 sensors run rich or richer than normal..
While we all think they actually are do some chemistry within the exhaust pipe to determine oxygen content, its not entirely true. Heat plays a large factory in its thing that it does. Changing velocities, adding turbulence acts like a wind chill effect does on our skin. When the wind blows on a hot day it cools the skin, slow the wind down and you get hotter and a hotter reading 02 is telling the computer to richen things up due to hotter being lean.
02 sensors are not all the same, if they were we'd all use the same exact ones, but there sized for particular things like pipe sizing.The only time they will throw a code is when they hit the boundary levels and these non wide band cheapies, will allow just up and over .5 from a perfect stoichiometric mix. Since short term normal driving determines the open loop PE stages, if its running rich, but within the boundaries the ECM is seeing, it'll go rich again also when in that phase. The stock ECM is set fairly rich to begin with in PE stages not really needing to richen up much, if any.

I have no problem with the 2 1/4 attempt on the collector.
I know the SC has a larger downpipe, but remember velocity and CFM requirements. Due to being force inducted, the amount of air exiting there cylinders is MUCH GREATER than a NA. Your downpipe should no exceed 2 1/4 and even then since its larger than the stock one, it will make you run to the richer side than normal. All you did with the intake and TB was change the velocity and add turbulence to the MAF side so it now reading to detune it.
Least thats what I'm thinking before you answer the question.

The intake and TB no problem for your usage cause your in that RPM area that uses it more than others are. But if I'm correct in thinking, then people running fairly stock exhausts are going to lean up with that setup. That may not be good and introduce lean misfires.

OK, you got that posted up while I was typing.

The first run was no exhaust and air side mods.
The second was with both mods in place.

How much time did you allow driving around, like a human and not a race car driver before the dyno session??

blktrax

No no, I didnt and arn't takeing it that way. You have the math I don't have.

Anywho

If you look at the graphs I posted before this they were WAY rich then leaned out with both the TB and exhaust. My mistake was I would have dynoed the exhaust parts then added the TB. But at 60 bucks each time you strap to the dyno starts adding up.

I'm adding the stock v 2.4 manifold graph here in a few then I'll edit this post.

Added

After the install it sat in the garage for a night with the battery unhooked. Drove it the next day to work, got up to operating temp then gave it the beans a few times on the way to work. Drove it normally for 2 weeks, with the occasional 3rd gear pass and a few spirited back road runs, overall 32 MPG 370 miles on that tank of fuel. But overall a normal driving weeks. No auto-x events, no drag strips, no light runs. Then its a 45 min drive on the freeway to the dyno, about 30 45 min cool down before strapping it down.

Dyno Graphs
1 Stock + Catback v. graph 2
2. 2.4 Intake manifold, gmpp intake tube, catback
3. 2.4 TB, 2.4 Intake Mani, Gmpp intake tube, SS/SC Mani + DP, catback
The only reason I didnt overlay graphs 2 and 3 they were IDENTICAL within 1-2HP of eachother.

bumpage

<rant>
What confuses the HELL out of me and is quite frustrating is that; I would have been MUCH happier if I put these parts on and there was a significant LOSS.

The root of what bothers me is there is no change up or down, its like if there was a diffirence these parts; combined negated each other.

Hence my leaning to the computer managament, or head flow charistersitics.

*not directed at anyone just my feeling and frustration*
<end rant>

Old Man

How many miles logged between mods??


I would like to tell you something. You where not even close to running rich on the first 2 pulls. 14.7:1 is perfect for normal driving , dropping into the mid to lower sections of the 12's:1 during PE. You were running within bounds at slightly over 15:1 and thats to the lean side.

Now your up near and over 16:1, A LITTLE TO lean for my blood and surprised, actually amazed you havent thrown a lean code.

Now one thing I am not sure of, is that first run stock. The stock ECM programming would never let you into the 11's.
The middle one is near perfect.

The last one is lean, which I all ready said, but has alot wavering issues.

I'm not sure, but if the dyno wideband is OK, I would look at your 02 sensor. Me has a hunch it has issues, which has you thinking its ECM programming.

At this point I am fairly confused, unless I'm correct and at least partially.

All the mods I have added over the years to my own and other peoples vehicles we always did one at a time and give 1000 miles between such for the ECM to adapt (learn).Then once all done would go in a correct minor problems, smoothen air fuel curves out and look to push timing. We got a few ponies, 10-15 from tuning, which you could also net it tuning was available. Bur I see erratic problems or maybe, maybe you did the mods do quick between miles driven, it hast adjusted yet.But I still see if should have thrown a code and since it didnt, I dont know if the ECM will adapt.

Installed 2.4 Throttle Body, SS/SC Exhaust Manifold, and SS/SC Down Pipe

That without a doubt took away all the bottom end and made the curves peaky.

I still like the middle run the best.

I hope your happy, your giving me a f**king headache now

These heads, I hear can take 11,000 RPM's. That tells me in a way, the head flow shouldnt be a problem. I dont know, maybe someone does and could shed some light, how much the head flows.

If you got that downpipe, TB issue, which I would tell you to remove it or get it settled, I'd be more inclined to nail the cam shaft as the restriction issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!

blktrax

450+ miles

Im sorry, and I totaly forgot to mention this.
A/F was measured by a Tip sniffer.
He told me, and from all the turbo guys and mustangs he's involved with, he's the guy to talk to about a/f.
That the tip sniffer is .75 to 1.25 points lean, the data collected is uncorrected.

so at 16.1 that tells me if hes right the leanest conservitive a/f is 15.4

He Now has his own capabilities to hook up to the ODB2 and pull A/F from the computer instead of the tip sniffer, but he just got that a week or so before these runs, and wanted to charge an extra $40 in retrospect it would have been worth it.

When I refer to head I'm refering to it as an assembly, Cams, Valves, & Ports. Vales/springs are good till, 6700 or so. Balance shafts in the block are good to 7000.


Advil anyone?

Old Man

PPHHHHEEEWW!! Ok, that helped alot .

Intake was a winner. Didnt drop out the bottom enough, but helped the top end.

Manifold and downpipe????? With the tip sensor, I cant see if it didnt anything or it was a matter of how far it was extended in etc for the differences in air fuel ratio. Air fuels for the first 2 will be throw out. But it didnt help a thing, power wise, curve wise etc.

The TB is causing havoc, you can see it in the wavering of the air fuel ratio. Its not consistent with it being a tip sensor like the other 2 are showing a maybe.

I dont know what to tell you with that AF deal that really screws things up.
I still have to believe the head isnt and issue and more likely the cam if anything.
Tuning always helps with a few more ponies and always will, but its definitely not programming thats limiting you.

shawn672

You want to know why you didnt see any change when you switched to the SS/SC Exhaust manifold?? Because the 07's now come with that exact manifold from the factory...you switched your stock manifold with the same item
The downpipe may be the same too, but its not confirmed yet.

blktrax

Agreed, its a Lift/Duration issue, combined with inability to control the timing


Cause I was the one that discovered that, however I hand ported and polished the SS/SC one I bought. The diffrence is the 02 sensor hole on the SS/SC the 07 manifold doesnt have that. Both 02 on the 2.2 are in the DP, SS has one in the manifold and one past the cat.

The SS/SC DP is 3/4" of an inch bigger over thet entire length of the DP. and matched the GMPP 2.5 in inlet of the cat-back system.

black22

Where'd you get the 2.4 mani at?

RedBaseBolt

Private sale off a member of this website. One time kinda deal.

Over the past few weeks I've come to the realization that this mod is only truly good if you are adding cams and/or F/I to the engine. It litterally KILLS torque off the line..great highway passing ability though. I don't have any trouble hitting 200km/h. It doesn't take nearly as long as it used to either.

Old Man

According to the dyno sheets in front of us, torque wasn't killed, its about 5 ft lbs lower at 3000 and 5 ft higher at 4000 and up in rpm's it doesnt fall off as bad.
Its definitely adds to the breathing at 5,500 where the stock one falls of.

Crate Engine Depot sells these!!

SS/SCking

looks great

shawn672

So to sum this all up...

Good for racing

Bad for daily driving


But again, who needs alot of power during normal driving?

blktrax

Summation,

good for those who shift,

bad for those that don't.

shawn672

wouldnt that be reverse?
Autos ride the Tach to the end, Manuals can early shift before they start losing power

blktrax

I was going on what you said about daily driving, If you need power, Shift, other wise your just cruising or gently accelerating anyway.

Besides why would you shift early if you're trying to make power. The longer you stay in a gear the higher the rpms are for the next gear, hence being in the powerband.