2.2blckbalt

iTrader: (3)

Is it realistic to hit 300 hp with the m62 supercharger on our engines?
I know your gonna get about 200hp with the stock pulley but what about dropping pulley size and building the internals?

Assuming you replace the rods and pistons, what would it take to push 300hp with the m62 on our engine?

Please note that I'm talking about pushing it reliably.

Thanks for any and all info.

More_Torque_More_HP

You would need pistons, rods and a crank for the 2.2L. You also need to spin the engine faster si you would need stiffer springs and new followers. I would replace the balance shafts with the neutral balance shafts as a minimum. you could go with an electric water pump and eliminate the water pump. You would also need to port the cylinder head exhaust ports as a miimum. You would want a single pass intercooler. I built a 2.0L that put out 335 HP with the m62.

2.2blckbalt

iTrader: (3)

Wow, a lot of that is over my head.
What if I decided to turbo it instead of super?
Would that be a cheaper or easier route than making 300 with a super?
And what kinda numbers can the stock manual transmission handle?

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

you can pretty much ignore everything he said.
2.7-2.8" pulley, meth injection, full cooling mods, and an agressive tune and I wouldnt be surprised to see 300whp.

More_Torque_More_HP

2.2L pistons won't take that power for long so you would probably still need pistons. Diamond Racing makes a nice 2.2L piston. The 2.2L crank is a cast crank vs the 2.0L which is forged steel crank. The cast crank is much weaker.

The pile of parts for a supercharged version or a turbo version are probably about the same cost. There is some block work needed for the turbo. The turbo oil drain would need to be machined in the block. In the supercharged version the intake manifold bolds are different diameters. The 2.2L has 6 mm intake stud (hole in the head) and the 2.0L has 8 mm threaded holes in the head. This issues was solved for the j-car (cavalier/sunfire) a special 6mm/8mm stud was designed and used.

Stock transmission has a ultimate limit in first gear of under 260 lb-ft of torque. the SS/TC Cobalts are limited in first gear so the don't break the trans.

CudaJoe

iTrader: (1)

I would listen to More Torque more HP. Hes probably the most knowledgeable on this forum.

Jn2

iTrader: (1)

I give that title to maven and area47...as far as the OP...the answer is :

Just as far as the 2.0. If u want 300 u set the bar to low.

-eagle hbeam rods
-weisco 10.1:1 pistons +.20" ovrbore
-sleeves(forgot who makes them)
-mls headgasket( go with thinner than stock)
-blower grind cams
-ss valves +2mm
-3angle valve job
-port and polished head
-knife edged crank( for fast rev)
-balance shaft delete kit
-LSD
-dual pass w/ meth or single pass
-dual core h/e
-e85 if it's available in ur area

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

^^ that sounds more like a build for trying to reach 350whp
you wouldnt need sleeves at those power levels anyway. Larger valves wont help much either due to our head design, but it couldnt hurt. If he's going to go with E85, then he should run a higher CR. I think he should run a 10.5:1 CR /wo E85 if he runs a large meth nozzle, and 11:1 if he runs E85. Also, while the 2.2 crank is not the same as the 2.0 cranks, I'm pretty sure it still handles about 500bhp before it becomes an issue, which is a lot more than the OP needs.

boosted2.2

Yes. Stock crank is good for 550. Balance shafts are fine to 7k rpm. Listen more to jn2 or hunterkiller not more tq more hp.

bsbllscnd970

if thats over ur head, u need to start doing a BUNCH more research into this, or ur going to blow ur car up. dont even attempt 300 until u know wat ur doing first.

More_Torque_More_HP

Stock 2.2L cast crank would not last long at HP's above 400 crank. The stock 2.0L steel crank is good to 500 plus HP. balance shafts are good to 7500 rpm but it takes 15 to 20 hp to turn them. Neutral balance shafts take much less hp. Make sure you have a solid crank sprocket. The dampened ones will self destruct at the higher revs (2.2L are usually solid and the 2.0L are dampened). The 2.2L stock rods are also a very weak point. As you walk up the HP ladder you will need pistons & rods first. As you up the RPM you definately need springs. Anything much above 7500 rpm you will need "solid" lifters. You may be able to stretch to 8000 rpm with out them but no further.

As a resume to the forum people that are not sure of my experience these engines are on my resume:

Land speed record Lakester 2.0L engine
Time Attack 2.0L engine
NA asperated, liquid nitrogen intercooled land speed 2.2L 9000 rpm engine

Also I help write the Ecotec Power book and the LSJ build book.

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

The op is only looking for about 350bhp anyway, so its a moot point, but GM rated the stock crank higher than 400bhp. The stock crank will do just fine. Neutral balance shafts take MORE hp to turn than the stock shafts. They weigh more than the stockers...
a balance shaft delete kit would be ideal if you're just trying to free up HP

N8s07SS

So I take it you're powertrain only then? Ask some of the driveline guys what they were thinking sending this car to production with such horrible wheelhop. I just can't imagine test driving a pre-production version of this car and thinking that was acceptable. Great job on the engines though, no complaints there

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

^^ he didnt say he designed the car...those are all race only cars made after the cobalt's release...

boosted2.2

definity agree

rnjmur

If you want a reliable 350bhp setup from a 2.2L you will need:

Rods (stock rods are only designed to handle 250bhp)
Pistons (stock pistons are tested to handle only up to 300bhp)
Header, downpipe and catback
With the M62 you will definatley need meth and a 2.7 pulley with an aftercooler
60# injectors
Nitrous
A good tune

It would be easier to get more power and probably more reliable to go turbo instead of the M62. With the right turbo you should be able hit your goal of 300whp without needing the nitrous.

Jn2

iTrader: (1)

I recommended sleev bc if the engine is apart u might aswell. Espeially bc how I listed it, boing it out would weaken the stocks sleeves, and I also raised compression, thinner gasket, higher comp pistons, **** shave the head a bit. Knife edging the crank wil help rev his bring max boost faster. Balance shaft delete will help do the same.


Ps if my spelling or gramar sucks it's bc I'm on my iPhone

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

high compression pistons, ditch the nitrous (cheater juice dont count...lol), and throw a dual pass or single pass and i agree with the above.

porting your head will also increase flow, efficiency, and power a good deal on a setup like this, though its not needed.

2.2blckbalt

iTrader: (3)

A lot of info here, thanks.

It sounds like 300 is to high of a goal for my current automotive knowledge/finances.
Backing off 300...

Doing a basic m62 setup with stock pulley puts me around 200hp.
Intercooler is recommended but not necessary for that.

Basically to increas hp with a super all your doing is dropping pulley sizes, correct?
As your dropping pulley sizes it basically comes down to how much hp/tq your engine/transmission can handle? At that point you have to add supporting mods or something will fail in the engine, correct?

Okay so forget 300 hp,
If my rods and pistons will generally break around 250m,
what would I need to get 220-230 with an M62?

Would a smaller pulley and an intercooler be enough?
What size pulley would take me there?

Also, what size is the stock pulley?


Thanks guys, I obviously dont have near the car smarts as some of you.
I've been doing a lot of research on what I'll need to supercharge but I'd like to go further than a basic set up. Hopefully have enough knowledge and the parts to do it next spring.

Jn2

iTrader: (1)

m62 on stg2 pulley
42lbs injectors
dual pass mod
cxracing heat exchanger
a aftermarket intake
header/dp/exhaust

u should be good for what u r aiming for...with a 3.0" pulley i put down 220.8wtrq@2.3k RPM...my hp wasnt so good but thats bc i lost fuel pressure @4k when i was on the dyno...

More_Torque_More_HP

Sorry but that is not correct. You need to look at rotating inertia and the neutral balance shafts even thought they weigh more they take way less hp to turn them. At 7000 rpm the production balance shafts are taking 15 to 20 hp to turn. The neutral balance shafts take less than 1/2 that.

HunterKiller89

iTrader: (1)

im a little lost how they would take less power to spin. are they shorter? if not, they should have the same diameter as the stock balance shafts, so the mass distribution couldnt be any better than stock...

explain please?

More_Torque_More_HP

It is what is called rotating inertia. Think of that as the energy to get the object rotating and keep it rotating. A symetrical shape takes much less energy to make it spin and to keep it spinning.

Also areo dynamics comes into play. A production shaft is basically 1/2 a cylinder (off set weight from center) it has to push the air out of the way each time it rotates. A Neutral balance shaft is a complete cylinder and does not have to move any air out of the way to make it rotate. The balance shafts rotate at twice engine speed so at 12,000 rpm balance shaft speed that is a huge amount of air to push out of the way.

Also friction is a factor a production balance shaft with it's off set weight has a huge side force in it's bearings causing a higher coeffecient of friction which means it takes more power to make them spin.

Jn2

iTrader: (1)

Im deletingg the balance shafts on mine...