Hydrogen Injection
09-13-2007, 07:43 PM
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If I were to have an estimated guess...the usa probly wont get the vast majority on board alternative fuels for at least....30 years sounds about right...
Why?
People are gonna be hesitant to try it first of all, becuase its something unknown to them..
Secondly, all signs point to more expensive, and less resale value. people would rather pay high gas prices than an extra say 5000$ up front, imo. Why? couldn't tell ya.
I mean look at the hybrids, theres a decent amount of them out there now for sale... yet i barely evr see hyrbids around. maybe 1%. and thats a high guess.
seems like alot more people would be jumping on board by now if we are to be rid of gas/oil cars by 2025...
Why?
People are gonna be hesitant to try it first of all, becuase its something unknown to them..
Secondly, all signs point to more expensive, and less resale value. people would rather pay high gas prices than an extra say 5000$ up front, imo. Why? couldn't tell ya.
I mean look at the hybrids, theres a decent amount of them out there now for sale... yet i barely evr see hyrbids around. maybe 1%. and thats a high guess.
seems like alot more people would be jumping on board by now if we are to be rid of gas/oil cars by 2025...
09-13-2007, 07:53 PM
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If I were to have an estimated guess...the usa probly wont get the vast majority on board alternative fuels for at least....30 years sounds about right...
Why?
People are gonna be hesitant to try it first of all, becuase its something unknown to them..
Secondly, all signs point to more expensive, and less resale value. people would rather pay high gas prices than an extra say 5000$ up front, imo. Why? couldn't tell ya.
I mean look at the hybrids, theres a decent amount of them out there now for sale... yet i barely evr see hyrbids around. maybe 1%. and thats a high guess.
seems like alot more people would be jumping on board by now if we are to be rid of gas/oil cars by 2025...
Why?
People are gonna be hesitant to try it first of all, becuase its something unknown to them..
Secondly, all signs point to more expensive, and less resale value. people would rather pay high gas prices than an extra say 5000$ up front, imo. Why? couldn't tell ya.
I mean look at the hybrids, theres a decent amount of them out there now for sale... yet i barely evr see hyrbids around. maybe 1%. and thats a high guess.
seems like alot more people would be jumping on board by now if we are to be rid of gas/oil cars by 2025...
people just don't like change. But just like changing from carbuerated engine's to fuel injected engines, we'll eventually make the transition
20 years is a LONG TIME. hell 20 years ago we barely had computers... Performance cars were running around with the same hp our base model 2.2 cobalts have now.
Last edited by Novajoe; 09-13-2007 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
09-14-2007, 01:30 AM
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My school built a tractor to run on hydrogen and diesel, so yes it is possible. (North Dakota State University). It runs on hydrogen that is separated via wind generators putting an electric current through water to get the hydrogen, and lord is it windy up here in NoDak. Give it up to the ag school to figure this stuff out. But it cost some big bucks to make (1.5mil+ grant) and won't be production ready for a while.
Sorry, I'm just proud that it's being done, and it's by my peers (I'm a mechanical engineering student).
Sorry, I'm just proud that it's being done, and it's by my peers (I'm a mechanical engineering student).
09-14-2007, 05:59 AM
#29
the actual "explosion" in your combustion chamber does almost nothing for you. It is the massive change in temperature and expanding gasses that creates the most pressure, and power, that's why leaning out your AFR will usually yeild more power, but be more dangerous for your internals.
And what engine are you talking about because i know of one that is pretty efficient...it's called diesel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourke_engine
a diesel engine is a little different since fuel is injected during or after it reaches its highest compression levels via direct injection...its not knocking, as the fuel burns at the rate it enters, not all of it instantaneously
you missed the major reason we use nitrous...lol. ill give you a chance to mention it because i think you know just didn't say.
no we aren't drilling it because it would cost billions upon billions of dollars to set up oil rigs etc. and our governement/automotive industry know there is absolutely no way we will be using fossil fuels for more than another 15 years as our major source of energy (transportation wise).
@lowrollen: thats pretty cool man. i wish i could do that kind of thing. im still going for basic automotive classes and ASE cert.
09-14-2007, 01:20 PM
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http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fusea...ideoid=5150933
09-14-2007, 01:32 PM
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For hydrogen gas to work as a fuel source you would need a tank the size of your car strapped to the roof to go say 200 miles. Even using todays advanced pressurization techniques pure hydrogen couldn't be made small enough to be feasible.
Not to mention the fact of how do you get raw hydrogen anyways? Or has anyone thought of the little thing called the Hindenburg? One accident is all it would take.
The problem with alternative fuel sources... even electricity is this... where does the power come from? Our current power distribution system can't keep up with the load as-is. We get failures and rolling blackouts all the time (ask the people in california). Imagine that if 2 million or more cars were suddenly plugged in.
The other thing is the fact that most of our power comes from non-renewable energy... like coal or natural gas... which also pollutes... and keeps us dependant on petrolium. So you're not really solving the problem at all... you are just moving it somewhere else.
Not to mention the fact of how do you get raw hydrogen anyways? Or has anyone thought of the little thing called the Hindenburg? One accident is all it would take.
The problem with alternative fuel sources... even electricity is this... where does the power come from? Our current power distribution system can't keep up with the load as-is. We get failures and rolling blackouts all the time (ask the people in california). Imagine that if 2 million or more cars were suddenly plugged in.
The other thing is the fact that most of our power comes from non-renewable energy... like coal or natural gas... which also pollutes... and keeps us dependant on petrolium. So you're not really solving the problem at all... you are just moving it somewhere else.
09-14-2007, 01:36 PM
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09-14-2007, 01:39 PM
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Now what I do like is the new Chevy Volt concept. Not b/c it's a Chevy either... but b/c it's a good idea.
It has the ability to run as full electric for up to 100 miles. It can be plugged in to recharge. But once you use that electric battery power up... a small gas powered generator in the back kicks on and provides power for the car to charge the batteries and run the motors.
Since only the generator is using gas it is extremely fuel efficient and pollutes very very little. The Volt can supposedly go something like 500 miles on 5 gallons of gas.
Amazing new stuff eh? WRONG... locomotives have been using this technology for years. They are diesel powered... but all the diesel engines do is turn generators for the electric motors in the wheels. Why it has taken this long for someone to do it with cars I have no clue.
It has the ability to run as full electric for up to 100 miles. It can be plugged in to recharge. But once you use that electric battery power up... a small gas powered generator in the back kicks on and provides power for the car to charge the batteries and run the motors.
Since only the generator is using gas it is extremely fuel efficient and pollutes very very little. The Volt can supposedly go something like 500 miles on 5 gallons of gas.
Amazing new stuff eh? WRONG... locomotives have been using this technology for years. They are diesel powered... but all the diesel engines do is turn generators for the electric motors in the wheels. Why it has taken this long for someone to do it with cars I have no clue.
09-14-2007, 01:39 PM
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So I know this doesn't actually exist but...
What if there was a hyrogen injection system (like a nitrous kit) for a car. I know (or im at least under the impression) that hydrogen blows up with alot more force than fuel does... So that sounds neat. Has it ever been done? anyone else wanna daydream lol
What if there was a hyrogen injection system (like a nitrous kit) for a car. I know (or im at least under the impression) that hydrogen blows up with alot more force than fuel does... So that sounds neat. Has it ever been done? anyone else wanna daydream lol
i dont believe its so much as a gas like vapor. i think its a liquid but not as unstable as a solid rocket booster hydrogen which is like 200 octane or something lol. and were also not mixing straight oxy into the car which will make it combust 100 times more powerful of an explosion.
so yes i think you can do it right now. just i dont know how one would go about tuning or fitment or hoses. which would be similar stainless steel braided high pressure fuel lines like nos.... correct me if im wrong.
but yeah sounds like a good idea to me.
ryan.
09-14-2007, 01:43 PM
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I love these Alternative Fuel threads!
No H2 in a gasoline ICE at high rpm's or loads. You'd melt your engine if you did. H2 burns alot hotter than gasoline or diesel does.
Where I work, we've built 2 gasoline/H2 dual fuel trucks, and one diesel/H2 truck. Basically it runs pure H2 in low RPM, and low load states. As the engine speed and/or load increases, it rolls back the H2 pulse width, and increases the factory gasoline pulse width.
Oh... and your timing has to be fine tuned alot. H2 backfires very easily.
As far as the injection side. Kehin makes a gaseous fuel injector that is more stable than a nirtous injector.... they are very expensive though.
On the storage side.... you need alot of volume, and alot of pressure to go any where on H2. On our research trucks we use a 50L tank, pressured to 5000psi. It will take us about 150km on dual fuel (about 80% H2, 20% gas).
BTW, if anyone is actually intersted in any of this alt fuel vehicles stuff (ethanol, bio diesel, H2 CNG), feel free to PM me questions. I can answer almost anything related to our companies field of work (check website). Also, I can start a thread answering questions.
If you want to check out our group website; http://www.src.sk.ca/html/research_t..._sys/index.cfm
No H2 in a gasoline ICE at high rpm's or loads. You'd melt your engine if you did. H2 burns alot hotter than gasoline or diesel does.
Where I work, we've built 2 gasoline/H2 dual fuel trucks, and one diesel/H2 truck. Basically it runs pure H2 in low RPM, and low load states. As the engine speed and/or load increases, it rolls back the H2 pulse width, and increases the factory gasoline pulse width.
Oh... and your timing has to be fine tuned alot. H2 backfires very easily.
As far as the injection side. Kehin makes a gaseous fuel injector that is more stable than a nirtous injector.... they are very expensive though.
On the storage side.... you need alot of volume, and alot of pressure to go any where on H2. On our research trucks we use a 50L tank, pressured to 5000psi. It will take us about 150km on dual fuel (about 80% H2, 20% gas).
BTW, if anyone is actually intersted in any of this alt fuel vehicles stuff (ethanol, bio diesel, H2 CNG), feel free to PM me questions. I can answer almost anything related to our companies field of work (check website). Also, I can start a thread answering questions.
If you want to check out our group website; http://www.src.sk.ca/html/research_t..._sys/index.cfm
09-14-2007, 01:48 PM
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I love these Alternative Fuel threads!
No H2 in a gasoline ICE at high rpm's or loads. You'd melt your engine if you did. H2 burns alot hotter than gasoline or diesel does.
Where I work, we've built 2 gasoline/H2 dual fuel trucks, and one diesel/H2 truck. Basically it runs pure H2 in low RPM, and low load states. As the engine speed and/or load increases, it rolls back the H2 pulse width, and increases the factory gasoline pulse width.
Oh... and your timing has to be fine tuned alot. H2 backfires very easily.
As far as the injection side. Kehin makes a gaseous fuel injector that is more stable than a nirtous injector.... they are very expensive though.
On the storage side.... you need alot of volume, and alot of pressure to go any where on H2. On our research trucks we use a 50L tank, pressured to 5000psi. It will take us about 150km on dual fuel (about 80% H2, 20% gas).
No H2 in a gasoline ICE at high rpm's or loads. You'd melt your engine if you did. H2 burns alot hotter than gasoline or diesel does.
Where I work, we've built 2 gasoline/H2 dual fuel trucks, and one diesel/H2 truck. Basically it runs pure H2 in low RPM, and low load states. As the engine speed and/or load increases, it rolls back the H2 pulse width, and increases the factory gasoline pulse width.
Oh... and your timing has to be fine tuned alot. H2 backfires very easily.
As far as the injection side. Kehin makes a gaseous fuel injector that is more stable than a nirtous injector.... they are very expensive though.
On the storage side.... you need alot of volume, and alot of pressure to go any where on H2. On our research trucks we use a 50L tank, pressured to 5000psi. It will take us about 150km on dual fuel (about 80% H2, 20% gas).
gasoline was probly expensive when it was first coming out. but this takes alot more thinking into it. and its ENDLESS just think 50 more years guys are little cobalt xtremes whatever compact is out then will have 2 times the power and go faster and farther maybe lol.
ryan. + rep when i can
09-14-2007, 01:49 PM
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yeah i heard that good post man very good. yeah right now h2 isnt very exceptional yet!! but its gettin refined more its just overall very expensive for everything. but the possibilities are endless. think of it this way.
gasoline was probly expensive when it was first coming out. but this takes alot more thinking into it. and its ENDLESS just think 50 more years guys are little cobalt xtremes whatever compact is out then will have 2 times the power and go faster and farther maybe lol.
ryan. + rep when i can
gasoline was probly expensive when it was first coming out. but this takes alot more thinking into it. and its ENDLESS just think 50 more years guys are little cobalt xtremes whatever compact is out then will have 2 times the power and go faster and farther maybe lol.
ryan. + rep when i can
09-14-2007, 01:56 PM
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i know they have tons of different things. like bio diesel. ive seen half diesel to 3/4 parts vegtable oil i mean its hugly thick. but totaly refinable. vey very cheap but for how much of it you have to use its in efficiant.
theres h20, like hybrids really arnt alternative fuels. i mean the ethenol thing is really picking up now. i know mostly it runs i think what 87 or 85 octane which isnt to good.
and alot less power then gasoline. it doesn conbust as easy i dont believe, but unlimited and there isnt much refining and theres quite a few cars on the road i see already with ethenol. i just have never seen ethenol stations anywere.
thatl be the next solution for now. then maybe h2 in a few decades. i know they can do it all now but there to lazy and dont wanna spend the money. think of it this way we sure as hell did pick up the pace trying to beat the russians to the moon and the cold war building all those nukes up and cant even do this stuff.
i mean anyone can figure out how to make alternative fuel just have to have the properties layed out and the molecular struture of the elements and the combustion temps and pressures and things of that sort. i mean its alittle high up there for the average person but if you wanted to you could.
ryan.
theres h20, like hybrids really arnt alternative fuels. i mean the ethenol thing is really picking up now. i know mostly it runs i think what 87 or 85 octane which isnt to good.
and alot less power then gasoline. it doesn conbust as easy i dont believe, but unlimited and there isnt much refining and theres quite a few cars on the road i see already with ethenol. i just have never seen ethenol stations anywere.
thatl be the next solution for now. then maybe h2 in a few decades. i know they can do it all now but there to lazy and dont wanna spend the money. think of it this way we sure as hell did pick up the pace trying to beat the russians to the moon and the cold war building all those nukes up and cant even do this stuff.
i mean anyone can figure out how to make alternative fuel just have to have the properties layed out and the molecular struture of the elements and the combustion temps and pressures and things of that sort. i mean its alittle high up there for the average person but if you wanted to you could.
ryan.
09-14-2007, 02:01 PM
#40
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Here some interesting stuff for you guys.
Dateline who killed the electric car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQ4cEr5Wao
Sony Pictures Who killed the electric car
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1
Dateline who killed the electric car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQ4cEr5Wao
Sony Pictures Who killed the electric car
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1
09-14-2007, 02:10 PM
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i know all about propane my grandpa owns a buisness, lindens propane lagrange ohio.
yeah i really thought about converting my 2.4 to propane it can be done just need a impco mixer and high pressure lines and a tank in the trunk and i bet you id be puttin out 200whp right now as i sit from my 173whp.
propane burns cleaner and hotter, but very ineffieciant
ryan. + rep to ctcobalt for the propane thing awsome man no one ever sugjests that
oh yeah propane would be sweet as hell on a 2.4 lol. already looked into it would only cost 2k with retune and calibrating a few things not to hard.
yeah i really thought about converting my 2.4 to propane it can be done just need a impco mixer and high pressure lines and a tank in the trunk and i bet you id be puttin out 200whp right now as i sit from my 173whp.
propane burns cleaner and hotter, but very ineffieciant
ryan. + rep to ctcobalt for the propane thing awsome man no one ever sugjests that
oh yeah propane would be sweet as hell on a 2.4 lol. already looked into it would only cost 2k with retune and calibrating a few things not to hard.
09-14-2007, 02:21 PM
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just adds alot of weight to the car. but i know how to reduce the weight on the car already. and i can hook you up in like 5 days flat dyno tune and **** now problem and its alittle more difficult with a sc but it can be done. the throttle body would have to be different i think.
has to support high pressure. but sure as hell would take that stage 2 to about 285whp or more
ive seen well over 3000 hp tractors runnin propane on 6 engines all tuned together
ryan. love your two tone car man thats awsome
has to support high pressure. but sure as hell would take that stage 2 to about 285whp or more
ive seen well over 3000 hp tractors runnin propane on 6 engines all tuned together
ryan. love your two tone car man thats awsome
09-14-2007, 02:22 PM
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Propane has alot less energy in it compared to other fuels.
If you want to convert to something worth while, convert to natural gas. It's even cleaner, long driving range, and more energy per volume than propane. The only down side is that you loose your top end power (just like propane).
If you want to convert to something worth while, convert to natural gas. It's even cleaner, long driving range, and more energy per volume than propane. The only down side is that you loose your top end power (just like propane).
09-14-2007, 02:24 PM
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Propane is the diesel's NOS... since they are already running at high pressures/temps it works better for them.
As far as ethanol goes... stay away from the stuff... it's not the answer either. America can't grow enough corn as it is to feed our livestock and people... so now we try to make gas out of it to?
You wonder why prices of meat, milk, eggs, and cheese are going up? It's b/c the livestock is all fed on corn... and the gas companies are now throwing their billions at the corn farmers to buy up the corn to make gas out of it.
As far as ethanol goes... stay away from the stuff... it's not the answer either. America can't grow enough corn as it is to feed our livestock and people... so now we try to make gas out of it to?
You wonder why prices of meat, milk, eggs, and cheese are going up? It's b/c the livestock is all fed on corn... and the gas companies are now throwing their billions at the corn farmers to buy up the corn to make gas out of it.
09-14-2007, 02:29 PM
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Propane has alot less energy in it compared to other fuels.
If you want to convert to something worth while, convert to natural gas. It's even cleaner, long driving range, and more energy per volume than propane. The only down side is that you loose your top end power (just like propane).
If you want to convert to something worth while, convert to natural gas. It's even cleaner, long driving range, and more energy per volume than propane. The only down side is that you loose your top end power (just like propane).
i mean here the best alternative is MR. FUSION
back to the future if we could only figure that out. then we wouldnt have trash our planet would be cleaner. no emissions no global warming and everyone is happier lol.
ryan.
Propane is the diesel's NOS... since they are already running at high pressures/temps it works better for them.
As far as ethanol goes... stay away from the stuff... it's not the answer either. America can't grow enough corn as it is to feed our livestock and people... so now we try to make gas out of it to?
You wonder why prices of meat, milk, eggs, and cheese are going up? It's b/c the livestock is all fed on corn... and the gas companies are now throwing their billions at the corn farmers to buy up the corn to make gas out of it.
As far as ethanol goes... stay away from the stuff... it's not the answer either. America can't grow enough corn as it is to feed our livestock and people... so now we try to make gas out of it to?
You wonder why prices of meat, milk, eggs, and cheese are going up? It's b/c the livestock is all fed on corn... and the gas companies are now throwing their billions at the corn farmers to buy up the corn to make gas out of it.
but yeah the corn thing is good but not for the whole!! like no meat and milk stuff but soybeans would be interesting or use some other sort of oil like vegtable oil sunflowers. i mean something has to be done. i know there is alot of smart guys here that are into this stuff like me.
ryan. i mean if they could make like a steam powered car smaller would be nice. but without the coal you know.
Last edited by rlinden86; 09-14-2007 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
09-14-2007, 02:31 PM
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Honda makes a Civic that runs on Natural Gas. I believe the govt. and a lot of gas companies use them. Haven't heard anything exceptionally good or bad about them.
Heheh... I don't think a measley minimum wage increase is enough to make my milk prices go from $2.50 to $4.50 a gallon.
Half the workers are illegals anyways... they don't get minimum wage.
Heheh... I don't think a measley minimum wage increase is enough to make my milk prices go from $2.50 to $4.50 a gallon.
Half the workers are illegals anyways... they don't get minimum wage.
Last edited by RaineMan; 09-14-2007 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
09-14-2007, 02:35 PM
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actually only there is 20 million illegal immegrants which are mostly in cali and mew mexico.
but as far as milk and stuff yeah it would. on top of the corn goin on ooh yes.
my mom told me when it went up from whatever to 5.15 everything jumped up. alot
were jumping 2.10 an hr thats alot more money if you htink about it more then if you think average people at 10 an hr thats well over 40 trillion new dollars.
thats a hellava lot more money. so someone has to cut into that.
ryan. like my new nismo edition 350z
but as far as milk and stuff yeah it would. on top of the corn goin on ooh yes.
my mom told me when it went up from whatever to 5.15 everything jumped up. alot
were jumping 2.10 an hr thats alot more money if you htink about it more then if you think average people at 10 an hr thats well over 40 trillion new dollars.
thats a hellava lot more money. so someone has to cut into that.
ryan. like my new nismo edition 350z
09-14-2007, 02:42 PM
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Not to argue... but... minimum wage isn't $7.25 yet... and won't be for another 2 years or so... the bill the govt passed is a phased one. Currently the federal minimum wage is $5.85... in a year it will be 6.55 or so... then after another year it will be $7.25
And the 20 million figure... if they're undocumented illegals... how the heck do we know how many of them there are?
And the 20 million figure... if they're undocumented illegals... how the heck do we know how many of them there are?
09-14-2007, 02:42 PM
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There is that and about 20 other reasons that they should kill the ethanol push.
Well... propane has more power than NG in a stock vehicle, but also more fuel consumption. NG is just as powerful when tuned properly, and uses less fuel. The big problem is that it is still less powerful than the gasoline version of the same vehicle.
At work, we are looking into developing a dual fuel NG gasoline vehicle. Basically it would be your typical NG vehicle, but when the load goes above a certain point, or you hit WOT, the vehicle switches (in a smooth blend) back to gasoline to provide optimum power.