Hydrogen Injection
09-14-2007, 02:49 PM
#51
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Well... propane has more power than NG in a stock vehicle, but also more fuel consumption. NG is just as powerful when tuned properly, and uses less fuel. The big problem is that it is still less powerful than the gasoline version of the same vehicle.
At work, we are looking into developing a dual fuel NG gasoline vehicle. Basically it would be your typical NG vehicle, but when the load goes above a certain point, or you hit WOT, the vehicle switches (in a smooth blend) back to gasoline to provide optimum power.[/QUOTE]
i know in 2 years itl be 7.25 thats what i said. but just b4 they passed it it was 5.15 then it musta went up then up and up.
but as far as ng goes propane is more powerful then gasoline but not as good mpg.
yeah i guess i just depends what you wanna spend cuz either one isnt unlimited
ryan.
At work, we are looking into developing a dual fuel NG gasoline vehicle. Basically it would be your typical NG vehicle, but when the load goes above a certain point, or you hit WOT, the vehicle switches (in a smooth blend) back to gasoline to provide optimum power.[/QUOTE]
i know in 2 years itl be 7.25 thats what i said. but just b4 they passed it it was 5.15 then it musta went up then up and up.
but as far as ng goes propane is more powerful then gasoline but not as good mpg.
yeah i guess i just depends what you wanna spend cuz either one isnt unlimited
ryan.
09-14-2007, 02:50 PM
#52
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Well... propane has more power than NG in a stock vehicle, but also more fuel consumption. NG is just as powerful when tuned properly, and uses less fuel. The big problem is that it is still less powerful than the gasoline version of the same vehicle.
At work, we are looking into developing a dual fuel NG gasoline vehicle. Basically it would be your typical NG vehicle, but when the load goes above a certain point, or you hit WOT, the vehicle switches (in a smooth blend) back to gasoline to provide optimum power.
At work, we are looking into developing a dual fuel NG gasoline vehicle. Basically it would be your typical NG vehicle, but when the load goes above a certain point, or you hit WOT, the vehicle switches (in a smooth blend) back to gasoline to provide optimum power.
09-14-2007, 02:51 PM
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Basically (in metric) if gasoline was $1.099/L, the equivelant in energy would put propane at $0.925/L, and natural gas at $0.735/L. (at current prices on both, mind you)
09-14-2007, 03:05 PM
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id say no. id say propane is better for the price. have you ever seen a NG station i havnt. NG may be cheaper to heat your house by about 20 cents a gallon compared to propane.
but for the power propane is better
for mpg NG is better
For overall acessability propane is better.
and for overall price propane is better.
and for ease of use and workability with using the tech. propane is easier
ryan.
id say no. id say propane is better for the price. have you ever seen a NG station i havnt. NG may be cheaper to heat your house by about 20 cents a gallon compared to propane.
but for the power propane is better
for mpg NG is better
For overall acessability propane is better.
and for overall price propane is better.
and for ease of use and workability with using the tech. propane is easier
ryan. i know it all about the 2 lol
actually thats very acurate from what the market was at those prices. when it was about what 5 years ago or more atleast. so yes you are right there.
right now i think propane is 1.85 a gallo and NG is about 1.55 or 1.65
gasoline is 2.95 but i think propane and ng maybe higher now could be propane 2 and ng 1.95
ryan. what a good man he knows his conversions. now that wouldnt convert to todays standards would it
but for the power propane is better
for mpg NG is better
For overall acessability propane is better.
and for overall price propane is better.
and for ease of use and workability with using the tech. propane is easier
ryan.
id say no. id say propane is better for the price. have you ever seen a NG station i havnt. NG may be cheaper to heat your house by about 20 cents a gallon compared to propane.
but for the power propane is better
for mpg NG is better
For overall acessability propane is better.
and for overall price propane is better.
and for ease of use and workability with using the tech. propane is easier
ryan. i know it all about the 2 lol
right now i think propane is 1.85 a gallo and NG is about 1.55 or 1.65
gasoline is 2.95 but i think propane and ng maybe higher now could be propane 2 and ng 1.95
ryan. what a good man he knows his conversions. now that wouldnt convert to todays standards would it
Last edited by rlinden86; 09-14-2007 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
09-14-2007, 04:56 PM
#55
you guys shouldnt compare priges per gallon tho. i honestly dont know much about the mechanics of propane/NG in an engine...but, what if, for example, NG runs at a 7:1 AFR and propane runs at a 12:1 AFR
one gallon of propane will run you 1.7X farther than one gallon of NG, even though NG costs 20% less.
in the long run, NG would be more economical....much the way diesel is....a diesel engine will run farther on 1 gallon of diesel than an engine will run on gasoline, making a diesel engine use less $$ per month on fuel, even though diesel costs morethan gas (this is assuming the two engines are identical, only 1 is diesel and 1 is gas)
thats not true at all dude...its a well known fact that there is more oil in this world than there is vegetable oil....if every car was switched to vegetable oil, all of the USA would need to become one giant corn field to support it
i dont think anyone thinks vegetable oil is the fuel of the future...its just a cheap fuel now because since no one has a vegetable oil car, theres no demand fr it, so restaurants just throw theirs out
The problem with alternative fuel sources... even electricity is this... where does the power come from? Our current power distribution system can't keep up with the load as-is. We get failures and rolling blackouts all the time (ask the people in california). Imagine that if 2 million or more cars were suddenly plugged in.
The other thing is the fact that most of our power comes from non-renewable energy... like coal or natural gas... which also pollutes... and keeps us dependant on petrolium. So you're not really solving the problem at all... you are just moving it somewhere else.
burning coal to make electricity is much more efficient than burning gasoline to make heat, especially when 70% of that heat is lost anyway
besides, a lot of our power comes from solar farms, wind farms, nuclear power, hydro-electric dams, and so on...its not all coal, and are all more efficient anyway
thats not the worlds fastest car....a Z06 on drag radials runs a faster 1/4 mile than that....hell, i'd bet the stock ariel atom is faster than that modified electric atom. no doubt its still a cool car, but definitely not the car of the future. a future electric car thats actually driveable would be the volta roadster. that things rediculous. great range for an electric, a VERY fast car, its in production, and it looks like a nice car and not just a frame like the atom.
one gallon of propane will run you 1.7X farther than one gallon of NG, even though NG costs 20% less.
in the long run, NG would be more economical....much the way diesel is....a diesel engine will run farther on 1 gallon of diesel than an engine will run on gasoline, making a diesel engine use less $$ per month on fuel, even though diesel costs morethan gas (this is assuming the two engines are identical, only 1 is diesel and 1 is gas)
i dont think anyone thinks vegetable oil is the fuel of the future...its just a cheap fuel now because since no one has a vegetable oil car, theres no demand fr it, so restaurants just throw theirs out
The problem with alternative fuel sources... even electricity is this... where does the power come from? Our current power distribution system can't keep up with the load as-is. We get failures and rolling blackouts all the time (ask the people in california). Imagine that if 2 million or more cars were suddenly plugged in.
The other thing is the fact that most of our power comes from non-renewable energy... like coal or natural gas... which also pollutes... and keeps us dependant on petrolium. So you're not really solving the problem at all... you are just moving it somewhere else.
besides, a lot of our power comes from solar farms, wind farms, nuclear power, hydro-electric dams, and so on...its not all coal, and are all more efficient anyway
Worlds fastest car as of right now is a prototype electric car, puts lambos, porches, ferraris to shame, makes em look slow. It only costs 150,000 but hey, whose counting. I'm gonna look for a link and show ya.
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fusea...&videoid=51509 33
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fusea...&videoid=51509 33
09-14-2007, 05:46 PM
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you guys shouldnt compare priges per gallon tho. i honestly dont know much about the mechanics of propane/NG in an engine...but, what if, for example, NG runs at a 7:1 AFR and propane runs at a 12:1 AFR
one gallon of propane will run you 1.7X farther than one gallon of NG, even though NG costs 20% less.
one gallon of propane will run you 1.7X farther than one gallon of NG, even though NG costs 20% less.
There is more energy in 1 equivellant gallon of NG, than propane, thus giving better fuel economy on a dollar basis.
burning coal to make electricity is much more efficient than burning gasoline to make heat, especially when 70% of that heat is lost anyway
besides, a lot of our power comes from solar farms, wind farms, nuclear power, hydro-electric dams, and so on...its not all coal, and are all more efficient anyway
besides, a lot of our power comes from solar farms, wind farms, nuclear power, hydro-electric dams, and so on...its not all coal, and are all more efficient anyway
The efficiency of electric motors is about 10% loss on charge up, 5% (of battery charge) loss on discharge (making mechanical energy), for a grand total of about 14.5% loss from voltage source to the output shaft.
It's a well known fact that electic vehicles have instantanious torque. The electic Atom actually accelerates faster than the gasloline version.
09-14-2007, 05:47 PM
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your right in some aspects of what you said. yeah i know what your talkin about the afrs from propane to NG. yes there is a difference and if im not mistaken. i think natural gas is higher up on the refining process then propane im not sure there for its thinner burning more of it.
thus making it more like kerosene or deisel but not that thick.
propane has the power its really clean though but not good mpg. NG im not to sure about though but its probly similar better mpg but less power.
i know about everything else you said though.
ryan.
oh yeah i watched a different vid of a drag electric car ran like 14flat or something. i mean as soon as you start it bam torque right there. but the brushes in the electric motors go out really quick though.
as for propane and ng is yes there is more energy in natural gas cuz its lighter on the refining scale burning hotter i believe. but power and costs with maintenance and everything else factored in the better buy is propane. there just isnt anywere to buy ng for cars really. and the maintenance is almost just as bad i mean its probly not hard but to come across parts like you would for regular engine on propane.
think this way. best price of mpg and distance definatly NG. but for power overall price per mile maintenance and parts labor. propane is overall better.
thus making it more like kerosene or deisel but not that thick.
propane has the power its really clean though but not good mpg. NG im not to sure about though but its probly similar better mpg but less power.
i know about everything else you said though.
ryan.
oh yeah i watched a different vid of a drag electric car ran like 14flat or something. i mean as soon as you start it bam torque right there. but the brushes in the electric motors go out really quick though.
as for propane and ng is yes there is more energy in natural gas cuz its lighter on the refining scale burning hotter i believe. but power and costs with maintenance and everything else factored in the better buy is propane. there just isnt anywere to buy ng for cars really. and the maintenance is almost just as bad i mean its probly not hard but to come across parts like you would for regular engine on propane.
think this way. best price of mpg and distance definatly NG. but for power overall price per mile maintenance and parts labor. propane is overall better.
09-14-2007, 05:52 PM
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Propane has alot less energy in it compared to other fuels.
If you want to convert to something worth while, convert to natural gas. It's even cleaner, long driving range, and more energy per volume than propane. The only down side is that you loose your top end power (just like propane).
If you want to convert to something worth while, convert to natural gas. It's even cleaner, long driving range, and more energy per volume than propane. The only down side is that you loose your top end power (just like propane).
09-14-2007, 05:52 PM
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I wonder why the press isn't talking more about atomic fusion? So much money and research is being put into alternative fuels of all kinds but no one is talking about the power that will propel the human race into the future.
Alternative fuels being developed right now are important for the near future, but not the long term answer.
In the '70s the genius Isaac Asimov predicted we would have achieved atomic fusion by 2000. Obviously he was wrong. Once perfected, fusion power will change the world as we know it, drastically.
I'm gonna have to do some searching to see what I can find out.
Alternative fuels being developed right now are important for the near future, but not the long term answer.
In the '70s the genius Isaac Asimov predicted we would have achieved atomic fusion by 2000. Obviously he was wrong. Once perfected, fusion power will change the world as we know it, drastically.
I'm gonna have to do some searching to see what I can find out.
09-14-2007, 06:00 PM
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Directing attention to the alt energy thread
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/show...96#post1451196
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/show...96#post1451196
09-14-2007, 06:46 PM
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we have attained fusion, haven't we?
its that thing where the plasma (hot ass atoms or w/e) go around the circle and can only be contained (heat and pressure) by an electromagnetic field, right?
On another note. it would be neat to see wind power put to use in our cars. I mean, we got all this air flowing to the car anyways, might as well throw a propeller or two under the hood. if a propeller powered all the accessories (electronics) when the car was in motion, like the alternator and what not. we would instantly have more powerful and fuel efficient cars, if our engine only had 1 job..put power to the wheels.
it would be like having super underdrive pulleys
its that thing where the plasma (hot ass atoms or w/e) go around the circle and can only be contained (heat and pressure) by an electromagnetic field, right?
On another note. it would be neat to see wind power put to use in our cars. I mean, we got all this air flowing to the car anyways, might as well throw a propeller or two under the hood. if a propeller powered all the accessories (electronics) when the car was in motion, like the alternator and what not. we would instantly have more powerful and fuel efficient cars, if our engine only had 1 job..put power to the wheels.
it would be like having super underdrive pulleys
09-14-2007, 06:59 PM
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we have attained fusion, haven't we?
its that thing where the plasma (hot ass atoms or w/e) go around the circle and can only be contained (heat and pressure) by an electromagnetic field, right?
On another note. it would be neat to see wind power put to use in our cars. I mean, we got all this air flowing to the car anyways, might as well throw a propeller or two under the hood. if a propeller powered all the accessories (electronics) when the car was in motion, like the alternator and what not. we would instantly have more powerful and fuel efficient cars, if our engine only had 1 job..put power to the wheels.
it would be like having super underdrive pulleys
its that thing where the plasma (hot ass atoms or w/e) go around the circle and can only be contained (heat and pressure) by an electromagnetic field, right?
On another note. it would be neat to see wind power put to use in our cars. I mean, we got all this air flowing to the car anyways, might as well throw a propeller or two under the hood. if a propeller powered all the accessories (electronics) when the car was in motion, like the alternator and what not. we would instantly have more powerful and fuel efficient cars, if our engine only had 1 job..put power to the wheels.
it would be like having super underdrive pulleys
as far as the electromagnetics. no its not plasma but in a way it is. it yes thats fusion and yes we have it. very very interesting stuff but no read my thread up there. they bombard tridium with hydrogen atoms and burns into helium or something like that. and creates a thermonuclear reaction and a chain reaction. burning as many atoms as it can very very rapidly they just cant bombard it fast enough.
ryan. the only thing with wind power is takes along time to go and stop and with turbine power you can have regular disc brakes it just isnt compatable with the driveline for the turbine. i dont know why
as far as wind power goes. its called turbine power.
09-14-2007, 07:04 PM
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Yeah they already have cars that run on hydrogen. You put water in the gas tank (H2O) and you split the hydrogen ion and oxygen atom and you release the oxygen and burn the hydrogen. This process is VERY volatile which is why we dont see it on the domestic market yet....
09-14-2007, 07:06 PM
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Yeah they already have cars that run on hydrogen. You put water in the gas tank (H2O) and you split the hydrogen ion and oxygen atom and you release the oxygen and burn the hydrogen. This process is VERY volatile which is why we dont see it on the domestic market yet....
it does what you said but combines the oxygen with hydrogen to make it more combustable.
ryan.
plus its very expensive and ineffieciant so far. i think it would work. its more like a fuel cell it isnt like the gasoline engine.
09-14-2007, 07:09 PM
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ryan.
do believe in something smaller than the atom? have you heard that one yet lol. i have
09-14-2007, 07:12 PM
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ryan.
would have to be maginfied another i think 290 times
09-14-2007, 07:17 PM
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yes ive seen one its a horizontally impossedvery low hp though funny you brought that up man not many young guys know that ill talk more later goin out. il rep you on that very very smart man right there.
ryan.
ryan.
09-14-2007, 07:21 PM
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they refine the hydrogen first you dont just put water in your tank. you have to buy the refind hydrogen not refined water. its the same thing.
it does what you said but combines the oxygen with hydrogen to make it more combustable.
ryan.
plus its very expensive and ineffieciant so far. i think it would work. its more like a fuel cell it isnt like the gasoline engine.
it does what you said but combines the oxygen with hydrogen to make it more combustable.
ryan.
plus its very expensive and ineffieciant so far. i think it would work. its more like a fuel cell it isnt like the gasoline engine.
09-14-2007, 07:33 PM
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Hybrid =/= hydrogen
im not calling you a lier, im just pointing that out.
The bottom line is that (about gasoline cars) theres just alot of wasted oppertunity. the air coming at the car could be turned into turbine power, the exuast going out could be steam power, and hell, why not throw a solar panel or 2 on top of every hood. it might as well be the new carbon fiber. lol
Things that would benifit us is using technology we already have to make cars more efficient to buy the world time to develop new, long term energy sources that are RWENEWABLE! not this bullshit humans do of using all of one resourse then moving to the next to destroy that.
Human kind is a parasite, agent smith in the matrix was right. lawl.
im not calling you a lier, im just pointing that out.
The bottom line is that (about gasoline cars) theres just alot of wasted oppertunity. the air coming at the car could be turned into turbine power, the exuast going out could be steam power, and hell, why not throw a solar panel or 2 on top of every hood. it might as well be the new carbon fiber. lol
Things that would benifit us is using technology we already have to make cars more efficient to buy the world time to develop new, long term energy sources that are RWENEWABLE! not this bullshit humans do of using all of one resourse then moving to the next to destroy that.
Human kind is a parasite, agent smith in the matrix was right. lawl.
09-14-2007, 07:36 PM
#73
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i was hoping i wasnt going to have to post this, but this is what i was talking about
http://www.waterpoweredcar.com/
http://www.waterpoweredcar.com/
09-14-2007, 07:44 PM
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I wasn't doubting you before, like I said.
Interesting link tho.
So what is the exhaust? water vapor? or does the hydrogen and oxygen stay seperated
Interesting link tho.
So what is the exhaust? water vapor? or does the hydrogen and oxygen stay seperated
09-14-2007, 07:49 PM
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You take water, run electricity through it, this splits the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. You burn the hydrogen and your exhaust is oxgen. Some people have even converted this oxygen into O2 which is liquid oxygen, which has very similar properties to jet fuel. Like i said it is VERY VOLATILE, meaning if you were to get into an accident and your hydrogen tank pressurized you are talking about an H-Bomb.