Mustard bottle turbo
10-12-2008, 10:03 PM
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Mustard bottle turbo
I figured I can go ahead and start my build thread. Tomorrow I am picking up a hydrolocked 2.2 ecotec from my buddy for $50. It is missing the exhaust manifold, belt and accessories, throttlebody, ecu, and wiring harness. I am thinking I could use my wiring harness and ecu along with my existing accessories but am worried about the canned tune from trifecta since I am going to have such a wildly different engine than any other ecotec. Any suggestions are welcome but if you mention standalone most are out because I am in an obd2 emissions state, so make sure it is obd2 compliant.
I plan on completely taken apart the engine and having it ready for machining by my machining class Monday. I am thinking to press out the old sleeves and put some iron .060 over sleves in, ofcourse .060 over pistons and I am going to bump the compression way down to 7.8:1. Forged/crio internals. Wide gapped rings for spray. Already in progress of a custom exhaust mani/DP for a GT35/GT37 oil cooled, free float, BB turbo.
I do have questions for the engine builders though:
1. I hear the worst part of our engines is the head, should I still port it out or get a whole new one? My goal is 390hp on 93 and 470hp on 110 and spray(just gonna stick with a 75 shot, direct port). If you vote new please give me some references of good heads for my application and where I could buy them.
2. What cam durations and angles do you reccomend? Just go with the "turbo grind" from comp or go with gmpp and have them machined?
3. Valves, retainers, seals, seats, rockers, ect. Can I safely use my stockers or should I upgrade to Fierra's? I know the springs will most likely need changed at the least.
4. I have noticed most of the boosted honda guys I know use Copper or Titanium gaskets, what makes it better and should I go with that or look into magnesium?
5. Should I sleeve the block or just go ahead witht he .060 over on the stock block? It has been rated at over 1000hp stable but with my extreme bore I know I killed that structural integrity.
6. Does the cobalt already come with zero deck clearance or not? I am used to v8's of yesteryear and those came with well over .030 over.
7. I am going to be dumping a lot of fuel, what injector sizing would be god? straight to 60's?
Thanks for looking and I should have engine teardown pics by thursday.
I plan on completely taken apart the engine and having it ready for machining by my machining class Monday. I am thinking to press out the old sleeves and put some iron .060 over sleves in, ofcourse .060 over pistons and I am going to bump the compression way down to 7.8:1. Forged/crio internals. Wide gapped rings for spray. Already in progress of a custom exhaust mani/DP for a GT35/GT37 oil cooled, free float, BB turbo.
I do have questions for the engine builders though:
1. I hear the worst part of our engines is the head, should I still port it out or get a whole new one? My goal is 390hp on 93 and 470hp on 110 and spray(just gonna stick with a 75 shot, direct port). If you vote new please give me some references of good heads for my application and where I could buy them.
2. What cam durations and angles do you reccomend? Just go with the "turbo grind" from comp or go with gmpp and have them machined?
3. Valves, retainers, seals, seats, rockers, ect. Can I safely use my stockers or should I upgrade to Fierra's? I know the springs will most likely need changed at the least.
4. I have noticed most of the boosted honda guys I know use Copper or Titanium gaskets, what makes it better and should I go with that or look into magnesium?
5. Should I sleeve the block or just go ahead witht he .060 over on the stock block? It has been rated at over 1000hp stable but with my extreme bore I know I killed that structural integrity.
6. Does the cobalt already come with zero deck clearance or not? I am used to v8's of yesteryear and those came with well over .030 over.
7. I am going to be dumping a lot of fuel, what injector sizing would be god? straight to 60's?
Thanks for looking and I should have engine teardown pics by thursday.
10-13-2008, 05:03 PM
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7.8:1 is pretty low IMO. If you want lower for boost, I would go with the 8.9:1 pistons that TTR sells.
Remember the Hahn build? They went with a 8.0:1 CR and even though they got over 400whp there was only 297wtq.
Remember the Hahn build? They went with a 8.0:1 CR and even though they got over 400whp there was only 297wtq.
10-13-2008, 08:33 PM
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Well I am going by my friend's SRT build and he went with 7.5's and had 6xxhp and 4xxtq. I dont really follow much cobalt performance since most of my friend have Hondas and SRTs.
Here are a couple pics from taking delivery today:
It will be apart within a week and machined within two.
The engine is out of a 06 Ion and the only difference I can tell is the fuel rail.
Here are a couple pics from taking delivery today:
It will be apart within a week and machined within two.
The engine is out of a 06 Ion and the only difference I can tell is the fuel rail.
10-13-2008, 08:47 PM
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Honestly there is none, by the end I am projecting about 4-5k into the engine/trans I have the car paid off so that isnt a factor and currently (and for the next year or two) I am going to be living with my mother so rent isnt a worry. My bills add up to less than $300 a month so car mods arent really a problem. Time isnt either since I have the spare engine, when I swap I am gonna do it completely reversible so if something messes up I can just drop the first one in.
10-14-2008, 12:02 AM
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hey man , no idea what that means, hopefully I will when I start taking classes next few months. But I wish u the best of luck. Numbers sounds real nicee 8-)
10-14-2008, 12:43 AM
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Ha, thanks man, honestly I have learned more about performance from research and the cobalt build book than school, School just taught me repair and theory.
10-14-2008, 01:26 AM
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Picking out valvetrain for our heads is going to suck. If you are planning on running more than .400 lift (turbo cams are .423 and .419) then you probably should get new valve springs. The only thing is finding the right valve springs and machining the head to make them sit at the proper height and not the stock height so they can handle the extra lift without binding.
Oh and 7.8 compression is really low, 9:1 is low enough. You're just going to loose power by going that low.
Oh and 7.8 compression is really low, 9:1 is low enough. You're just going to loose power by going that low.
10-14-2008, 05:10 PM
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10-14-2008, 06:47 PM
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Picking out valvetrain for our heads is going to suck. If you are planning on running more than .400 lift (turbo cams are .423 and .419) then you probably should get new valve springs. The only thing is finding the right valve springs and machining the head to make them sit at the proper height and not the stock height so they can handle the extra lift without binding.
Oh and 7.8 compression is really low, 9:1 is low enough. You're just going to loose power by going that low.
Oh and 7.8 compression is really low, 9:1 is low enough. You're just going to loose power by going that low.
You do know that some cars do come stock with as low as 7.5:1 CR's right? When I first heard that I was suprised but have since researched it and come to the conclusion that I will be able to run higher pressure with lower compression.higher pressure means more fuel and air which means retard the timing, lower compression means more advanced timing.
10-14-2008, 06:58 PM
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You do know that some cars do come stock with as low as 7.5:1 CR's right? When I first heard that I was suprised but have since researched it and come to the conclusion that I will be able to run higher pressure with lower compression.higher pressure means more fuel and air which means retard the timing, lower compression means more advanced timing.
10-14-2008, 07:10 PM
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Hmmm, didnt think about having to machine the seats... I am thinking machine them down about .030, that should give me clearance without giving me issues(assuming so if I am wrong please call me out on it, I would rather be wrong in theory than in reality). What pressure valve springs are stock and what should I go with? I dont want to risk valve float nor score off a camshaft lobe...
You do know that some cars do come stock with as low as 7.5:1 CR's right? When I first heard that I was suprised but have since researched it and come to the conclusion that I will be able to run higher pressure with lower compression.higher pressure means more fuel and air which means retard the timing, lower compression means more advanced timing.
You do know that some cars do come stock with as low as 7.5:1 CR's right? When I first heard that I was suprised but have since researched it and come to the conclusion that I will be able to run higher pressure with lower compression.higher pressure means more fuel and air which means retard the timing, lower compression means more advanced timing.
10-14-2008, 07:32 PM
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Hmmm, didnt think about having to machine the seats... I am thinking machine them down about .030, that should give me clearance without giving me issues(assuming so if I am wrong please call me out on it, I would rather be wrong in theory than in reality). What pressure valve springs are stock and what should I go with? I dont want to risk valve float nor score off a camshaft lobe...
You do know that some cars do come stock with as low as 7.5:1 CR's right? When I first heard that I was suprised but have since researched it and come to the conclusion that I will be able to run higher pressure with lower compression.higher pressure means more fuel and air which means retard the timing, lower compression means more advanced timing.
You do know that some cars do come stock with as low as 7.5:1 CR's right? When I first heard that I was suprised but have since researched it and come to the conclusion that I will be able to run higher pressure with lower compression.higher pressure means more fuel and air which means retard the timing, lower compression means more advanced timing.
I'm telling you bro, 7.5:1 is too low. I know guys running 2.2 eco's at 20psi+ on 10:1 pistons, plus with that low of compression your out of boost drivablity is going to really blow. I would imagine you want to go that low to be safe but really 9:1 is plenty safe enough.
10-14-2008, 07:40 PM
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Yeah the first gen dsm's came with 7.8. The second gens went with 8.5 and alot of 1st gen owners put the second gen pistons in for more power. The higher the comp ratio, the faster you will be able to spool that huge ass turbo you plan on putting on. My buddies ld9 cavi had a comp ratio of 9.3. At 16psi out of his gt35r= 422whp on pump gas. Its not my opinion, its the truth. 7.5 is way to low. Unless you plan on 45+ psi out of a gt42r, i wouldn't go lower than 8.5 period.
Thanks for refferencing the cavy, more research and I may decide to bump it to 8.2 but not any higher. I want enough power to break transmissions
I'm going to PM you a thread on another site that should help you understand the problems with the valvetrain.
I'm telling you bro, 7.5:1 is too low. I know guys running 2.2 eco's at 20psi+ on 10:1 pistons, plus with that low of compression your out of boost drivablity is going to really blow. I would imagine you want to go that low to be safe but really 9:1 is plenty safe enough.
I'm telling you bro, 7.5:1 is too low. I know guys running 2.2 eco's at 20psi+ on 10:1 pistons, plus with that low of compression your out of boost drivablity is going to really blow. I would imagine you want to go that low to be safe but really 9:1 is plenty safe enough.
Although thanks for said PM(even though I havent gotten it yet.
10-15-2008, 09:21 PM
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The compression ratio from the factory will be different for naturally aspirated engines and boosted engines. For example, a stock Honda S2000 has a compression ratio of 11.1:1, whereas a turbocharged Subaru Impreza WRX has a compression ratio of 8.0:1.
There are numerous factors that affect the maximum allowable compression ratio. There is no single correct answer for every application. Generally, compression ratio should be set as high as feasible without encountering detonation at the maximum load condition. Compression ratio that is too low will result in an engine that is a bit sluggish in off-boost operation. However, if it is too high this can lead to serious knock-related engine problems.
Factors that influence the compression ratio include: fuel anti-knock properties (octane rating), boost pressure, intake air temperature, combustion chamber design, ignition timing, valve events, and exhaust backpressure. Many modern normally-aspirated engines have well-designed combustion chambers that, with appropriate tuning, will allow modest boost levels with no change to compression ratio. For higher power targets with more boost , compression ratio should be adjusted to compensate.
There are a handful of ways to reduce compression ratio, some better than others. Least desirable is adding a spacer between the block and the head. These spacers reduce the amount a "quench" designed into an engine's combustion chambers, and can alter cam timing as well. Spacers are, however, relatively simple and inexpensive.
A better option, if more expensive and time-consuming to install, is to use lower-compression pistons. These will have no adverse effects on cam timing or the head's ability to seal, and allow proper quench regions in the combustion chambers.
There are numerous factors that affect the maximum allowable compression ratio. There is no single correct answer for every application. Generally, compression ratio should be set as high as feasible without encountering detonation at the maximum load condition. Compression ratio that is too low will result in an engine that is a bit sluggish in off-boost operation. However, if it is too high this can lead to serious knock-related engine problems.
Factors that influence the compression ratio include: fuel anti-knock properties (octane rating), boost pressure, intake air temperature, combustion chamber design, ignition timing, valve events, and exhaust backpressure. Many modern normally-aspirated engines have well-designed combustion chambers that, with appropriate tuning, will allow modest boost levels with no change to compression ratio. For higher power targets with more boost , compression ratio should be adjusted to compensate.
There are a handful of ways to reduce compression ratio, some better than others. Least desirable is adding a spacer between the block and the head. These spacers reduce the amount a "quench" designed into an engine's combustion chambers, and can alter cam timing as well. Spacers are, however, relatively simple and inexpensive.
A better option, if more expensive and time-consuming to install, is to use lower-compression pistons. These will have no adverse effects on cam timing or the head's ability to seal, and allow proper quench regions in the combustion chambers.
And yes I know they are opposed style engines.
10-20-2008, 06:51 PM
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It still had compression on all cylinders after I cranked it backwards and got the water out of the intake...
There was water in all cylinders but 1+3 were full.
There was water in all cylinders but 1+3 were full.
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