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Rear drums replaced with discs?

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Old 09-21-2007, 12:02 AM
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Rear drums replaced with discs?

Is this even possible on a 2.2? I havent really seen any kits out for retrofitting..didnt know if it was possible or not. It would be nice to get some extra braking power and of course the sexy 4 disc brake look.
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:03 AM
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there is a kit... ill give u the link but its not worth the money

http://www.stainlesssteelbrakes.com/...balt&year=2005

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Old 09-21-2007, 12:05 AM
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its been discussed 100x, please use the search button...

its not cost effective, the rear drums are fine for daily driving, unless you are a hardcore road/autocross racer there is no reason to get rid of the drums...
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:07 AM
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word..
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:08 AM
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get your drums drilled just like they do for rotors
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:10 AM
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alright yeah sorry right when i posted i found that link..but i guess ss rims are out of the question for LS. what rims can the ls take without problems.
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by shreadguitar
alright yeah sorry right when i posted i found that link..but i guess ss rims are out of the question for LS. what rims can the ls take without problems.
it depends on the year, if you have 4 lug nuts then the bolt pattern is 4x100 and LOTS of cars have that pattern so you shouldnt have any prob. finding rims. if you have 5 lugs then the pattern is 5x110 and the SS rims will fit
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:12 AM
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search,,,, 4 lugs... 17's are the best for performance and looks 18's are 2 heavy specially the ss/sc rims..
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kyyankee
get your drums drilled just like they do for rotors


the things rear discs get's you:

1- looks sweet
2- easy to replace
3- no adjustments

It really doesn't improve braking
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:56 AM
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the mk2 vw guys do it with there rear drums
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Old 09-21-2007, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kyyankee
the mk2 vw guys do it with there rear drums
if the mk2 vw guys drove their cars off a cliff...
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Novajoe
if the mk2 vw guys drove their cars off a cliff...
would you cheer with joy?


there finished up that statement for you
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by REIGNftSOLDIER
would you cheer with joy?


there finished up that statement for you
I was thinking more along the lines of "the world would be a better place" or something, but I figured I'd leave it open and see what kind of vw bashes I can get outta people.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:04 AM
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actually i like VW, but that is just what came to mind...
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:05 AM
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in theory understand why but would i do it no and i was looking for where i saw it and cant find it right now
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by REIGNftSOLDIER
actually i like VW, but that is just what came to mind...
yea probably the only make that comes with a flower vase option

Originally Posted by kyyankee
in theory understand why but would i do it no and i was looking for where i saw it and cant find it right now
yes...

Last edited by Novajoe; 09-21-2007 at 01:08 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:23 AM
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the theory is the same as disk brakes heat and dust disapation, and this isnt something you whip out a black and decker and do its a machine shop job,


this isn't vw but still



Project Plymouth gets a decades-old brake trick…

Drilled Drums
Text by Dave Hill / Photos by Jerry Weesner and Dave Hill

cvrX.jpg

What's the first thing you think of when considering updating your '50s cars brakes? Discs of course. There are many ways of adapting discs these days, the easiest of which is ordering a kit from one of our advertisers. But what if nobody makes one for your car? If you are building a mid-'5Os Mopar, I can assure that such is the case. It certainly is with my '55 Plymouth wagon, and I'd bet with any year Nash, Hudson, Kaiser, Packard, or similar orphan. After calling around and searching the web, I resigned myself to a lot of custom fabrication and junkyard searching. Then I remembered a guy I'd met on the Internet with a '55 Plymouth powered by a 440 Mopar. What had he done for binders? Bob McGee at My55rock@aol.com likes to help out fellow '50s Mopar fans, and turned me on to C.H. Topping in Long Beach, California, where he had his '55 drums drilled. I checked out Topping's web site (www.chtopping.com) and learned all about drilling holes in brake drums. When I called, I talked Vince Bunting, who gave me the whole scoop.The company was founded in 1931 by C.H. Topping to sell auto parts. Topping later learned the drilling trick from a fellow named Mel Hamer, who came up with ventilatedif he drilled some holes in his brake drums the heat would escape and the car would stop better. It worked so well, that all the other racers wanted him to do theirs also. Apparently this became a well-kept secret, as nobody I mentioned the technique to had ever heard of it. It was while he was working with Bill Stroppe on various Ford race car projects that a production car engineer told Hamer drilled drums would never work near as well as the new disc brakes they were then developing. Bunting figures that comment led to the reason Detroit never produced ventilated drums and why the rest of us know nothing about them.The first question people ask is about water and dust. If you've driven a drum brake equipped car through water you know braking is non-existent. With holes in the drums, centrifugal force not only evacuates dust, but water immediately as well. But the main benefit is the fact that when drums are vented properly, so as to eliminate balance and material integrity problems, they virtually eliminate fade, which is.the primary reason discs replaced brakes while racing at the dry lakes. He figured drums in the first place. Gasses are vented as well, as the holes create what amounts to a venturi effect, venting gases created by compression of air between the shoes and drum that would otherwise be trapped in a stock, unvented drum, hindering braking efficiency. This also holds true with disc brakes (believe it or not), so venting is beneficial here, too.

Another benefit is reduced unsprung weight, which improves ride quality. Surprisingly, a brake disc weighs three times what a drum does, and calipers are four times heavier than a wheel cylinder. Cars designed with discs take all those extra pounds (approximately 60 total) into consideration in their suspension system. Therefore, adding discs to the Plymouth would likely roughen up the ride quite a bit if I didn't change the springs and shock absorbers to compensate for the extra pounds.

I can't think of an easier, less expensive way to upgrade your stock brakes. All you have to do is box up your drums and send them to C.H. Topping. They will have them back to you in just a couple of days. It would be a good idea to have them checked for cracks or excessive wear first. They also supply a wide variety of master cylinders, including the modern dual chamber model I decided to replace my stock one with. Oh, they will also ventilate disc brakes, if you are already so equipped. Give them a call for more info.

The first trick is to let the hot air escape, and help cooler outside air get in. For track-only cars, the backing plates can be liberally drilled with ventilation holes. Just make sure the structural integrity of the backing plate is not compromised, although these are usually made from very rigid steel and can stand some radical ventilating. This approach will work even better if you also add a scoop or duct that directs air from the front of the car to the holes (scoops that attach to the backing plate are still available for the resto rod market).

If the holes are too big you may need to cover them with chicken wire or similar screening to prevent debris thrown up by the wheels from getting inside and jamming the brake mechanism. On the street, these holes present another problem, allowing rainwater to splash inside. Of course, you can always plug up a scoop for rainy weather driving.

Another approach involves the lining material, which has come a long way since the 1950s. Many modern friction materials can be attached to old brake shoes. These are usually bonded and riveted on. New materials have several advantages, among them the ability to work well from cold to hot without extensive "warming up," as was required in the past.

Also, modern racing brake fluid is effective at much higher temperatures than in the past. If you choose a racing brake fluid, be sure to bleed it often and change it regularly as it loses its effectiveness rapidly. For street use, stick with high-performance street fluids that are more resistant to picking up moisture. For racing use, avoid silicone fluids, since they can cause spongy pedals.

Yet another performance trick is to use lightweight aluminum brake drums. The most common aluminum drums were called Al-Fins (named for the bonding process, not the manufacturer). Actually, only the outside of the drum was aluminum, with a cast-iron liner for the pads to rub against.

The Al-Fin process was one of the first effective methods of bonding the drum to the lining, so that they wouldn't pop apart when they got really hot. Al-Fins were popular in the 1950s on European sports and racing cars, and were even used on the fronts of some Buick sedans starting in 1958. The huge Buick drums were favorites of home-built racers and hot rodders alike, who loved the racy finned drums.

Due to the large number made from the 1950s to the 1970s, Buick drums are still in good supply in wrecking yards. They have been an enduring favorite of nostalgia rodders, resulting in a new kit that hides a small disc brake inside a replica Buick Al-Fin drum. These are not legal for vintage racing, but are a good idea for rods and street machines.

Al-Fin drums were made by other manufacturers to fit on Triumphs, MGs and other British sports cars. Many Alfa Romeos came with aluminum drums as well. The Datsun 240Z even had them on the back. These can sometimes be modified to fit other special applications. From time to time, new Al-Fins are made up for vintage sports car restorers.

High performance brake components provide enhanced stopping power by improving friction while reducing brake fade. Improved friction is provided by lining materials that have a higher coefficient of friction than stock brake pads while brake fade is reduced through the use of more expensive binding resins with a higher melting point along with slotted, drilled, or dimpled rotors that reduce the gaseous boundary layer in addition to providing enhanced heat dissipation. Heat buildup in brakes can be further addressed by body modifications that direct cold air to the brakes.

Both disc and drum brakes can be improved by any technique that removes heat from the braking surfaces.

Drum brake fade can be reduced and overall performance enhanced somewhat by an old "hot rodder" technique of drum drilling. A carefully chosen pattern of holes is drilled through the drum working section; drum rotation centrifugally pumps a small amount air through the shoe to drum gap, removing heat; fade caused by water-wet brakes is reduced since the water is centrifugally driven out; and some brake-material dust exits the holes. Brake drum drilling requires careful detailed knowledge of brake drum physics and is an advanced technique probably best left to professionals. There are performance-brake shops that will make the necessary modifications safely. The Bugatti Veyron for example has turbine cooled brakes that reduce fade to almost nothing considering the speeds it is braking from.

Last edited by redlineblueline; 09-21-2007 at 01:23 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kyyankee
the theory is the same as disk brakes heat and dust disapation, and this isnt something you whip out a black and decker and do its a machine shop job,


this isn't vw but still



Project Plymouth gets a decades-old brake trick…

Drilled Drums
Text by Dave Hill / Photos by Jerry Weesner and Dave Hill

cvrX.jpg

What's the first thing you think of when considering updating your '50s cars brakes? Discs of course. There are many ways of adapting discs these days, the easiest of which is ordering a kit from one of our advertisers. But what if nobody makes one for your car? If you are building a mid-'5Os Mopar, I can assure that such is the case. It certainly is with my '55 Plymouth wagon, and I'd bet with any year Nash, Hudson, Kaiser, Packard, or similar orphan. After calling around and searching the web, I resigned myself to a lot of custom fabrication and junkyard searching. Then I remembered a guy I'd met on the Internet with a '55 Plymouth powered by a 440 Mopar. What had he done for binders? Bob McGee at My55rock@aol.com likes to help out fellow '50s Mopar fans, and turned me on to C.H. Topping in Long Beach, California, where he had his '55 drums drilled. I checked out Topping's web site (www.chtopping.com) and learned all about drilling holes in brake drums. When I called, I talked Vince Bunting, who gave me the whole scoop.The company was founded in 1931 by C.H. Topping to sell auto parts. Topping later learned the drilling trick from a fellow named Mel Hamer, who came up with ventilatedif he drilled some holes in his brake drums the heat would escape and the car would stop better. It worked so well, that all the other racers wanted him to do theirs also. Apparently this became a well-kept secret, as nobody I mentioned the technique to had ever heard of it. It was while he was working with Bill Stroppe on various Ford race car projects that a production car engineer told Hamer drilled drums would never work near as well as the new disc brakes they were then developing. Bunting figures that comment led to the reason Detroit never produced ventilated drums and why the rest of us know nothing about them.The first question people ask is about water and dust. If you've driven a drum brake equipped car through water you know braking is non-existent. With holes in the drums, centrifugal force not only evacuates dust, but water immediately as well. But the main benefit is the fact that when drums are vented properly, so as to eliminate balance and material integrity problems, they virtually eliminate fade, which is.the primary reason discs replaced brakes while racing at the dry lakes. He figured drums in the first place. Gasses are vented as well, as the holes create what amounts to a venturi effect, venting gases created by compression of air between the shoes and drum that would otherwise be trapped in a stock, unvented drum, hindering braking efficiency. This also holds true with disc brakes (believe it or not), so venting is beneficial here, too.

Another benefit is reduced unsprung weight, which improves ride quality. Surprisingly, a brake disc weighs three times what a drum does, and calipers are four times heavier than a wheel cylinder. Cars designed with discs take all those extra pounds (approximately 60 total) into consideration in their suspension system. Therefore, adding discs to the Plymouth would likely roughen up the ride quite a bit if I didn't change the springs and shock absorbers to compensate for the extra pounds.

I can't think of an easier, less expensive way to upgrade your stock brakes. All you have to do is box up your drums and send them to C.H. Topping. They will have them back to you in just a couple of days. It would be a good idea to have them checked for cracks or excessive wear first. They also supply a wide variety of master cylinders, including the modern dual chamber model I decided to replace my stock one with. Oh, they will also ventilate disc brakes, if you are already so equipped. Give them a call for more info.

The first trick is to let the hot air escape, and help cooler outside air get in. For track-only cars, the backing plates can be liberally drilled with ventilation holes. Just make sure the structural integrity of the backing plate is not compromised, although these are usually made from very rigid steel and can stand some radical ventilating. This approach will work even better if you also add a scoop or duct that directs air from the front of the car to the holes (scoops that attach to the backing plate are still available for the resto rod market).

If the holes are too big you may need to cover them with chicken wire or similar screening to prevent debris thrown up by the wheels from getting inside and jamming the brake mechanism. On the street, these holes present another problem, allowing rainwater to splash inside. Of course, you can always plug up a scoop for rainy weather driving.

Another approach involves the lining material, which has come a long way since the 1950s. Many modern friction materials can be attached to old brake shoes. These are usually bonded and riveted on. New materials have several advantages, among them the ability to work well from cold to hot without extensive "warming up," as was required in the past.

Also, modern racing brake fluid is effective at much higher temperatures than in the past. If you choose a racing brake fluid, be sure to bleed it often and change it regularly as it loses its effectiveness rapidly. For street use, stick with high-performance street fluids that are more resistant to picking up moisture. For racing use, avoid silicone fluids, since they can cause spongy pedals.

Yet another performance trick is to use lightweight aluminum brake drums. The most common aluminum drums were called Al-Fins (named for the bonding process, not the manufacturer). Actually, only the outside of the drum was aluminum, with a cast-iron liner for the pads to rub against.

The Al-Fin process was one of the first effective methods of bonding the drum to the lining, so that they wouldn't pop apart when they got really hot. Al-Fins were popular in the 1950s on European sports and racing cars, and were even used on the fronts of some Buick sedans starting in 1958. The huge Buick drums were favorites of home-built racers and hot rodders alike, who loved the racy finned drums.

Due to the large number made from the 1950s to the 1970s, Buick drums are still in good supply in wrecking yards. They have been an enduring favorite of nostalgia rodders, resulting in a new kit that hides a small disc brake inside a replica Buick Al-Fin drum. These are not legal for vintage racing, but are a good idea for rods and street machines.

Al-Fin drums were made by other manufacturers to fit on Triumphs, MGs and other British sports cars. Many Alfa Romeos came with aluminum drums as well. The Datsun 240Z even had them on the back. These can sometimes be modified to fit other special applications. From time to time, new Al-Fins are made up for vintage sports car restorers.

High performance brake components provide enhanced stopping power by improving friction while reducing brake fade. Improved friction is provided by lining materials that have a higher coefficient of friction than stock brake pads while brake fade is reduced through the use of more expensive binding resins with a higher melting point along with slotted, drilled, or dimpled rotors that reduce the gaseous boundary layer in addition to providing enhanced heat dissipation. Heat buildup in brakes can be further addressed by body modifications that direct cold air to the brakes.

Both disc and drum brakes can be improved by any technique that removes heat from the braking surfaces.

Drum brake fade can be reduced and overall performance enhanced somewhat by an old "hot rodder" technique of drum drilling. A carefully chosen pattern of holes is drilled through the drum working section; drum rotation centrifugally pumps a small amount air through the shoe to drum gap, removing heat; fade caused by water-wet brakes is reduced since the water is centrifugally driven out; and some brake-material dust exits the holes. Brake drum drilling requires careful detailed knowledge of brake drum physics and is an advanced technique probably best left to professionals. There are performance-brake shops that will make the necessary modifications safely. The Bugatti Veyron for example has turbine cooled brakes that reduce fade to almost nothing considering the speeds it is braking from.
that's cool and all, but our rear brakes don't go through that much stress and really don't heat up that bad because of it. If we had front drums then yea it'd be the way to go. But while drilling holes in your drums is great for ventilating them they also reduce frictional area inside the drum. Which hinders braking. It also makes it impossible to ever machine the drums should the need arise. Not to mention the fact that it lets water and other things that could reduce friction between the drum and shoes inside the drum.

Like I said, if it were on the front then it could make a differenct reducing the heat, but on the rear it just doesn't see enough action to make the cooling modifications neccessary, especially when it brings all the other problems along.
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Old 09-21-2007, 08:59 AM
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Please try a search in the future before making new threads.

As your question has been answered, I'm closing this before it becomes a post-whoring mess.
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