bzzt

Interesting video of fuel cell being made and working:
http://www.truveo.com/Do-It-Yourself.../id/1341555959
Site associated with video:
http://diyhydrogenhho.com/

YellowLT

Fire Extinguisher... That is all

umrdyldo

iTrader: (1)

Alright lets see some numbers and I think most will be in.

I'd like to see before and after of the engine after running a few thousand miles

avenger09123

um..........wrong?
First of all don't be so uppity about saying something won't work when you have so many people saying it does. Your car shoots for a general AFR, using 0xygen sensors to pick up whats left over and adjust according to altitude for an optimum power production, your car picks up the fact that it is producing more power than the AFR should be supplying and backs down the fuel in an attempt to even it out, all its gonna do is drop the AFR down because your getting more air explosive now and so you require less gasoline explosive....See they build cars smarter now so they auto-tune themselves, get your head out of the stone-age.....

Yes the car auto adjusts its fuel trims for optimum power in all RPM ranges, its called an algorithm, kind of like your oil % meter. Except its based in flash memory, so when you unplug your battery, it resets the learned fuel trims to factory standard and starts to learn it all over again.

It is proven safe and reliable as long as you have a couple safeguards against pressure buildups and stuff like that (i.e. pressure relief valves...stuff like that) As for pushing this gas(vapor typically involves bigger molecules that are not split, remember this is producing pure H2 gas and pure O1 gas. To be honest I'm not sure if you'd lose boost, Hydrogen is like 30 or 50 times lighter than oxygen, so in the end, you might lose boost, but if you bought a car with a supercharger/turbocharger on it, you weren't concerned with gas mileage anyways lol!!!!!!!!!! JK guys...

The risks are the same as everything else, however minimal, hydrogen needs an ignition source to ignite, and disperses 50 times faster than normal air, if your valves have a leak the flame could very well travel back through the intake and into the container where it would....................hit the water and extinguish itself lol.

I will post pics of the inside of my muffler after 1000 miles, supposedly it cleans out your car too...

As for the guy that said he loved "that post" about the chemistry behind it....I totally agree with that post 100%, if we wanted to burn 1 gallon of water in 1 HOUR!!!!!!!!!!! No, look at my calcs 1 page back from here and look what I said, simple math, all verifiable. Don't bash it unless you have proved I made a mistake lol.....

lewisb13

Theres no such thing as O1 gas. Oxygen is diatomic, meaning it doesnt exist as a single molecule. You end up with 2H2 and O2. It takes 2 water molecules for this reaction. Its really 2H2O+e- = 2H2 + O2.

avenger09123

BTW chief....I'm a mechanical engineer........I'm sure I would understand the "technical terms"... and could probably throw a couple your way....

Oh about the o2, I was under the impression when you broke down H20 it broke it down to H2 and O, my fopah lol........thats where the chemists come in handy lol......."meaning it doesn't exist as a single molecule"....you mean to say "meaning it doesn't exist as a single atom."

lewisb13

Also think about this. At idle the car produces a certain voltage and amperage which the car does not use all of. The regulator sends the batter and ignition module what it needs and the rest is dissipated as heat through the battery. So instead of wasting this "extra" electricity, you send it through water to produce the 2H2 and the O2. This will displace some of the gasoline going into the cylinder, which gives you the better fuel mileage. You are correct in saying that it takes much much more energy than it produces because this is inefficient electrolosys, but we arent trying to run the entire car off hydrogen are we? We are just using the leftover energy from the alternator to do the job. This is similar to how hybrids work, when you apply the brakes instead of the brakes loosing all that energy through heat emmission, you are using a generator to reclaim that energy.

Psykostevo

It is throttle activated, because it does not draw into your engine until you start drawing air through the intake beyond vacuum.

avenger09123

yeah...I'm bypassing that by putting into into the original cam cover breather hole in my CAI intake so not only does it have a place to release pressure buildup but it will also pull a good amount using the venturi principle too......like a carburetor pulling gas in............

Psykostevo

That's what I was going to do too. I was just going to hook it up to the existing vacuum hose there.

avenger09123

yeah i'm a chickenshit when it comes to my vacuum line lol........and one plan I saw did that, had it both in the intake and in the vacuum line lol......

Psykostevo

Well I guess the magazine I work for it going to test this out by building a fairly large unit. I think in the 64 Oz range. And we are either going to test this out on a Solstice or my Mustang.

First we are going to build the kit, and then test it by running it through a bubbler. If it doesn't blow bubbles it doesn't make gas. So we will find out.

cakeeater

hmm that's interesting, so this extra o2 product is just disappearing? Your car will see the extra o2 as a product and add fuel.


for every 2 molecules of hydrogen you are putting in there you are also adding one molecule of oxygen. For any reasonable increase in energy form the combustion you are going to have considerably more oxygen.


people say the turbonator works too! and look they even have lab results!

Psykostevo

That's why I'm not believing it until seeing it for myself. But I'm all for trying it out. As long as it doesn't end up like the "Time Machine" from Napoleon Dynamite.

avenger09123

Yeah sorry about that, I was a littel fuzzy on the restructuring of atoms after electrolysis, I didn't know we didn't have monoatomic oxygen...my bad...

AS for the extra o2? no it'll ignite, just like the hydrogen, all it needs is the spark plug, a guy at my work brought up what you said cakeeater, that it'll dump more fuel in to balance out the more o2, but I was thinking about it and pulled out my manual....the way the engine reads o2 is it reads it through the MAF sensor which responds to o2 rate of flow over the platinum wire and tells the computer how much o2 is coming, and then tells the system how much fuel to dump in from the table and then the o2 is measured coming out the back. The way our and I assume the "99%" of other cars from the water4gas website is that the computers are programmed to to take the MAF measurement over o2 sensor in the exhaust.

Myself and that other guy are going to plug them into the breather hole which is after the MAF , so the engine doesn't know its getting the extra air. Remember the only thing that keeps the o2 in the atmosphere from lighting off is the nitrogen and miscellanious gasses in the air. Concentrated o2 and h2 are going to burn up almost completely along and better burn the natural air o2 in your car and your car is going to detect a lot less o2 coming out, think its coming in too rich and lowering the gas tables to accomodate the "acceptable unburned o2 level on exit 1 and 2"

GreenPurgatory

Everyone has to agree that this works in theory. There are lawnmowers that run on hydrogen from tanks.

The theory is sound.

http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/vehicles/ice.htm

It works, if you don't agree stfu, or start your own thread.

avenger09123

alrighty HOW TO will be published this weekend...I'm gonna be building it this friday AND i'll take plenty of pictures and even a video of it working...as well as putting about 200+/- miles on it this weekend to test it.

Psykostevo

That sounds good! I can't wait. We are peicing our ~64oz kit together this weekend, and we even ordered a 500gram supply of this higher grade catylist.

pimpnwink

iTrader: (1)

thats awesome man

Badju587

Part of this was actually my point. You can't possibly burn that much water in that short of a time. The added point was that there's not enough Hydrogen here to make any sort of useful gains.

Let's go with your numbers, burning one quart of water in 35 days, or at 2 hours per day, about 70 hours. We won't need the catalyst used for electrolysis or the amperage/voltage for this. It's been demonstrated it can be done at this rate with or without a catalyst by the alternator, all we're interested in is the rate and amount of Hydrogen available per unit time. I'll go over a 70-hour slow burn of the available Hydrogen, and a scenario in which we burn it all off in two hours, or even one hour.

Starting with the power extracted out of the Hydrogen-Oxygen reatcion (since the system claims to increase power along with mileage):

One quart of water has about 3.165 * 10^25 molecules in it. Double that to find the Hydrogen ions generated from electrolysis (6.33 x 10^25). That's about 105 moles of Hydrogen. The energy yield of the Hydrogen-Oxygen reaction is 286 kJ/mol, or about 30.07 MJ for the entire quart of water. Since we want the energy spread out over 70 hours, this comes to 430 kJ/hour, or about 0.16 horsepower.

This is primarily why I don't believe their power increase claim. 0.16 HP is a gain, but not noticeable, you can get more by replacing a bad air filter.

Next, let's look at the mileage increase. This is said to work by leaning out the air in the chamber with Hydrogen as a replacement, such that you've got less Oxygen and more Hydrogen. The MAF sees less Oxygen and compensates by squirting less fuel. This is seen with normal gasoline at altitude, where the MAF adjusts for less fuel to hit the commanded AFR.

For this part, we'll use the 105 moles of Hydrogen gas we've generated, and a few assumptions to try and maximize the gains. Assume that:

- We have a device to meter the hydrogen such that it is fed evenly to the engine over the entire 70 hour period.
- We are using a 2.2l Cobalt LS 5spd manual.
- Volumetric Efficiency is 90% (a good number for a N/A car)
- The car is traveling at a constant 60 MPH.

With these in mind, we can calculate:

- The amount of Hydrogen available per hour is 105 mol/70 hours = 1.5 moles, (about 33.15 liters, or 1.18 cubic feet)
- In fifth gear, at 60 MPH, the car is at 2590 RPM. (3.84:1 final drive, 0.81:1 5th gear ratio).
- At 90% VE, and 2590 RPM, the car needs 99 CFM of air (or about 2,803.37 liters/minute)

Expanding this to one hour, we get:

- 2,803.37 * 60 = 168,202.2 liters of air per hour
- 2,590 * 60 = 155,400 revolutions per hour

Per revolution of the engine, we get:

- 168,202.2 liters air per hour / 155,400 revs = 1.082 liters of air per revolution
- 33.15 liters Hydrogen per hour / 155,400 revs = .0002 liters of Hydrogen per revolution

If we're tuned for this extra Hydrogen, we can remove the same amount of air from the chamber. We've effectively reduced the amount of air, and leaned out the AFR by .02%

Burning the entire stock of Hydrogen in two hours only increases the power gain to 5.6 HP, and the air reduction in the chamber by 0.7%. Going to a one-hour burn increases the power to 11.2 HP, and the air reduction to 1.4%

This is why I don't believe the MPG increase claim.

----

OP, by all means test this out. Post the gains, post the engine pictures, post everything. I've said from the start I'll change my tune if it works, but right now the numbers don't add up.

avenger09123

alrighty, I'm building the homemade one, the other guy is building a 64oz pro kit, we'll both post our results as long as we don't kill ourselves over the weekend....till then...see ya'll

Badju587

Good catch.

The Hydrogen has to have something to combust with, and Oxygen's its only option. Actually, compunds containing Oxygen are the only option for combustion with anything. Take the electrolyzed Oxygen out, and you have to combust the Hydrogen with the Oxygen pulled in from the outside air. This leaves less Oxygen for the fuel to combust with, resulting in a rich condition. The MAF would pull fuel to compensate for the unburned stuff in the exhaust (assuming there's enough of it to register on the MAF).

Of course, this would work if there was enough Hydrogen in the chamber to consume most of the Oxygen, but there isn't unless you compress it. Burning compressed Hydrogen has its own problems though (it would burn too hot for the gas engine). If you want to go that route, the Honda FCX is probably a better bet .

Putting Oxygen in after the MAF sensor on the intake will probably come out as a wash. The Hydrogen will consume it in the combustion reaction, rejoining with the Oxygen it was separated from, turning into water again, and the exhaust sensor will be none the wiser. I wonder what the water will do with that sensor though... hrm.

avenger09123

the water probably won't do anything considering we won't be recombining enough o2 and H2, besides, when your exhaust hits 400 or 500 degrees...its not gonna matter, that waters gonna separate again..........

Psykostevo

We are building it from scratch too. I'm not paying $1,000 for a kit to test it out LOL!

68nova200

iTrader: (2)

I cant wait to see what happens!