bamaboy22

saved

Psykostevo

It's a temperature realated sensor, not quite like intake sensors. The O2s work of variations in temperatures based on a preheated value.

Badju587

point taken. Don't think you'll have enough hydrogen to do much, but test away

TVS_SS

Being a mechanical engineer doesnt really mean much.. I have met quite a few with a degree and not much common sense.

Please, by all means, write out the energy balance equation for breaking water into hydrogen and then for combining it back into water using the internal cobustion process (otto cycle)

You are proposing to have a self contained hydrogen supply... If you would do the chemistry you'd find it takes alot more energy to aquire hydrogen than you get in return.

I agree, hydrogen is a great fuel, but you wont get enough to make a difference. I'd go through the chemistry for you, but you're a mechanical engineer you should be able to do this for yourself

Just keep in mind, i've had mechanical engineers argue with me that using an "e-ram" was a good idea for the formula SAE race vehicle.. (its basically computer fans you place in the intake duct).. Then, i let them test it... then they went back to thier equations and found the missing factor that proved it was completely pointless..

So, please test it... just be man enough to admit it doesnt work when you figure it out..


I will say this, you are placing too much emphasis on the wrong part of the equation..

Its like the kid who said his bike moves without pedalling, While he is technically correct when he is coasting down a hill.. he completely disregards the amount of energy it takes to get up the hill in the first place

boostedss26

I'll put up some pice of mine also this weekend

avenger09123

Alrighty man, we're giving it a go this weekend. However I do want to point out one thing clear it takes a good amount of electrical energy to recover hydrogen/oxygen, while our cars do produce an abundance of amperage (and its amperage that matters more than voltage here), so it would basically be like using whats already there to do the breaking up of the molecules, and getting the est 70% energy return in gasses to the engine to help power it. So in essence, it won't really be a drain on our cars since they already overproduce electrical energy.

And if a guy on this forum put it on his inline 6 cyl TJ with gears not made for the freeway and got like an extra 63 miles a tank...I'd say it was definitely worth it....as well as the dude with the orange cobalt saying how he did it and it worked with his cobalt....I'd kind of say everyone who's saying "it doesn't work and its bullshit" is gonna be bending over and kissing the asses of the people that did it already...not to mention an apology for being HATERS lol all good dude....

TVS_SS

driving style will have much more impact on your results...

as a good engineer, you need a "control" for your experiment. Make sure you do a test both with and without this under the same conditions. Only way to prove anything..

I can get an extra 60 miles from my tank by driving differently..

umrdyldo

iTrader: (1)

Being an engineer I know one thing

There are no good engineers

Only less bad ones than others.

avenger09123

for sure, I'll prolly drive 1 tank on the freeway to get see how many miles I get per gallon
and I know how many I get driving the same freeway without it already

yeah its pretty much like dumb and dumber lol.......

Badju587

And make sure the control and test runs are done as close together as possible. I'm sure there's a way to hook all this stuff up and run the car without it turned on. Back-to-back runs are the most accurate.

Fill the car up, drive normally to the highway, drive for as many miles as you can stand, come back, fill the tank up. Turn the device on, and do it again. The more miles you drive, the more accurate the test. Ideally, you'll burn the whole tank. Fuel pumps don't shut off at the same point every time, the difference between getting 1 gallon and 1.2 gallons may be a matter of when the pump decides to shut off. You won't get the same error if you do a 10-12 gallon fill-up

Maybe even repeat the above a few more times, there's no such thing as too much data.

I'm granny-driving mine right now, car normally gets about 31 MPG, I'm getting 36.5 right now out of a Stage 2.... and probably pissing my clutch off by shifting so low

That's almost an 18% increase just from granny driving, which incidentally is a 66 mile increase per tank. I'm looking at 400 miles on a Stage 2 tank since I normally fill up with 11 gallons. If I pushed it to a 12-gallon fill-up I'm sure I could hit 430 on a tank without running out of gas.

avenger09123

my tank is a 13.3 gallons, and I have run this car on the freeway to the low fuel point at 65mph on a trip to arizona...which is perfect becuase i'm doing it right before I go to AZ again fishing

cakeeater

so you feel running an EXTREMELY lean mixture with some hydrogen is safe? The point is, using this system will also be adding a large amount of oxygen which defeats the purpose of the hydrogen.

Badju587

Actually, it won't be adding a large amount at all. There's only 105 moles of H+ (Hydrogen ions) being added by a quart of water, and electrolysis produces O2, so there are four times fewer Oxygen molecules floating around in the system than Hydrogen ions.

You're looking at less than 10 cubic feet of Oxygen gas out of a liter of water. Not much at all.

You did hit on the point though that Oxygen won't just combust by itself. It needs fuel, like Hydrogen or Gasoline. A combustion equation involving Oxygen and heat alone doesn't exist. In a closed system, with nothing but pure O2, Oxygen does not combust, no matter how much heat is applied.

cakeeater

how four times? wouldn't it be half? and if you are getting any significant gain in energy from combustion you are going to need a decent amount of hydrogen and the increase in hydrogen will havea direct relationship to the increase in oxygen. The more hydrogen you get, the leaner you are going to run.

avenger09123

well I built and installed the system...just like I said I would...looks like its working, although the effect of it seems more drastic in the low end of the RPM range rather than the upper end....

My first run with it at 45mph in 5th gear on a level road against a 20mph wind showed a 60.1mpg in dash...

Freeway showed 54mpg in 5th gear cruise on a level road @60mph
Freeway showed 50mpg in 5th gear cruise on a level road @65mph
Freeway showed 40mpg in 5th gear cruise on an uphill steep grade @70mph w/ head on 20mph....

I'll take official readings tomorrow based on a full tank and the out and back trip to arizona @ 65mph....when I get back I'll fill up and see how much it took to get out there and back....should be a good enough change from the suggested 34mpg epa that it came with...

How-to pics are done and ready for everyone...though I think I will be refining the design a little more as some of what I built is a little more flimsy than I'd like....

impulseballer

nice man. yeah get some good pics and accurate readings though. you can't trust the computer readings sometimes.

bzzt

Don't let this happen to you!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfk8jXVUF34
btw, I have a Honda Pilot that already gets around 20 mpg mostly hwy and have a 3000+ mile trip coming up. Tempted to try the hydrogen setup on it

impulseballer

that looks like a pressure explosion

avenger09123

yeah it was...definitely looked like the line to the glass of water was clogged somewhere....As long as my 1/2" heater hose doesn't get clogged it should be fine...besides I sealed everything with RTV....even if it does get clogged it will blow the RTV before it blows the glass apart lol.....


trip today was great....47.2mi @ .831 gallons...pics assembing tomorrow for posting...comes out to be 56.799mpg.............I'd say this works for sure lol..

impulseballer

nice man. if i didn't have an LSJ I might of thought about it but i dunno.

stangthang

What a fun read...

I have two friends who are trying this out. They claim they saw an increase in MPG, but I was skeptical. If it works so well, why isn't it being used in all cars produced nowadays?? I am thinking there IS a catch somewhere...just another one of those "old wives tales" or myths that seems to be true at first....

Anyways, I am open to new ideas... The test vehicle is a late 90's something V-8 full size Dodge pick-up, gas motor. I think they built their own kit from parts bought at Home Depot. They claimed a 3 mpg increase at first, maybe went from 12 mpg to 15 or so. Then said they made some changes, and maybe got a better increase in mpg, 5 to 8 mpg increase. They have been logging all the fuel purchases and mileage for almost 3 months now. I questioned the ability to make fuel efficiently. I thought it would probably take more energy to create the gas than was gained in efficiency of the motor. But if you can use electrical power that is already being wasted....it could work in theory. I also suggested they were just driving more carefully to get higher MPG readings. Like how you install a performance part on the Cobalt and then "feel" a difference in HP. Maybe the actual gain in minimal, but you "want to believe it." Maybe other members can suggest some problems with this type of set-up??

Here are a few more of my questions:

1) How are you sure this is not creating a "bomb" under the hood of the car? I guess there is a method to put a check valve or omething on the gas cannister.

2) If the alternator is running more to provide more electrical output being used, will it wear out much sooner?? Just a thought.

3) I wondered if test conditions were exactly the same for testing with the hydrogen gas and without. Is there a headwind in one direction, but tailwind when returning from trip?? The same trip should be run twice in same time frame to get same test conditions. Any experiment can yield very weird results if ALL the conditions are not monitored and kept equal.

4) What other expenses go into producing the hydrogen gas? I asked about the salt that was purchased to add to the water. I guess this was the "catalyst" that was mentioned? It was claimed that the "salt" purchases did not cost that much, maybe a few bucks per container....and it should last a while I was told. I need to check back on this fact. If producing the hydrogen is costing too much, might as well just pay more for the extra gasoline used. Also, the cost of the water was a buck a gallon.

5) Is the mixture going into the engine highly corrosive?? Will this wreck any components of the engine?? I was shown that the metal plates contained in the cannister had to be made out of stainless steel. Iron plates just rotted away I guess. My friends used some stainless steel light switch plates they bought at Home Depot.

Well, I was shown the set-up they were using, and it did show some kind of gas being produced and going into the intake manifold. The cannister was rather large and hard to place in the engine bay. Maybe about the size of a coffee can?? Lots of room in the full size truck engine bay, but not that kind of room in the Cobalt...hmmm..... I wondered if the hydrogen producing containers could be made out of thinner straight PVC tubing or something to save space?? Could they be placed horizontally in the engine bay?? That would leave room to put a bunch of PVC tubing, maybe 1 or 2" tubing?? just a few thoughts I had so far.....

cakeeater

that is waaaay too big of an increase for me to trust...i'm not saying you are lying... but you are almost doubling the efficiency of your drivetrain if that is right, and i just can't see that happening with the amount of hydrogen being introduced. how do you know it's .831 gallons? are you filling up then going and seeing how much it takes to fill up again or something?

RA080424

So you gonna help me install this on my Cobalt bro?

lightinbalt

sounds to good to be true... will try this on my grand am first once we get a detailed how-to.

Psykostevo

Let's get some pics of your setup. I'd like to see it. We are still trying to piece our kit together.


Why would the water cost $1 a gallon? You can use tap water.

And the catalyst can vary. Some are more efficient than others, you can use baking soda, and some use some type of potassium or something. My friend bought 500grams of some catalyst for $30 after shipping. I don't know if that was a good deal or not, we will see.