Zdeuce4's mild NA build progress thread
03-14-2009 | 07:13 PM
#126
03-14-2009 | 07:14 PM
#127
where do u guys get this from? from wut ive seen 2.0s are the ones that have garbage flowing heads... 2.4s should be good... wut does p&p have to do with an NA cam build
cobeezy didnt do port and polish..im not doing a full fledged na build.. cams are just the first power adder.
03-15-2009 | 04:46 PM
#128
I don't know it completely but here is the info as I have learned it.
the engine is 2.4 liters which means that can internally 'displace' 2.4 liters of air.
The problem with any combustion engine is that they are not 100% efficient so you have volumetric efficiency (what % of the 2.4 liters it can suck in) in the 90's peak. Let's say 95%. That makes the actual engine displacement utilized about 2.24 liters max. the max efficiency of the engine is where peak torque is in the rpm band.
After peak torque HP can still climb but the volumtric efficiency of the engine is declining. But moving on...The intake runners have air pulsing up and down them. This is from the valves opening and closing and occours at the speed of sound. These pressure waves can be utilized to force more air into the engine. Hence a 'tuned intake'. The length of the runner determines how long it takes for a wave to bounce back and forth and this determines what rpm the intake is suited for. the # of times the wave goes back and forth increases with shorter runners. ideally you would want one pulse because the wave would be strongest but the intake would have to be super long. So we shoot for the 2nd or 3rd pulse. As listed above you have 10% gain on 2nd pulse and 7% on 3rd (if I'm understanding that correctly). So if you have an intake (like the stock one tune for 2nd pulse 5800-6800) then you get a 10% gain. Depending on the efficiency of the engine at that point, you could surpass 100% efficiency and having an NA motor act like it was receiving boost. Making more power than theoretically possible in normal atmospheric conditions.
The other side of this is intake size. if the intake were not large enough and you had 4" of vaccum, you'd be losing ~13% of your power just due to vaccuum. In this case it would be better to have a larger intake regardless of whether it was tuned or not. Gaining back that 13% could more important that trying to gain 10% with a 2nd order harmonic. But really, you want both.
If you understand this better than me, feel free to correct or add. Any questions, feel free to ask.
the engine is 2.4 liters which means that can internally 'displace' 2.4 liters of air.
The problem with any combustion engine is that they are not 100% efficient so you have volumetric efficiency (what % of the 2.4 liters it can suck in) in the 90's peak. Let's say 95%. That makes the actual engine displacement utilized about 2.24 liters max. the max efficiency of the engine is where peak torque is in the rpm band.
After peak torque HP can still climb but the volumtric efficiency of the engine is declining. But moving on...The intake runners have air pulsing up and down them. This is from the valves opening and closing and occours at the speed of sound. These pressure waves can be utilized to force more air into the engine. Hence a 'tuned intake'. The length of the runner determines how long it takes for a wave to bounce back and forth and this determines what rpm the intake is suited for. the # of times the wave goes back and forth increases with shorter runners. ideally you would want one pulse because the wave would be strongest but the intake would have to be super long. So we shoot for the 2nd or 3rd pulse. As listed above you have 10% gain on 2nd pulse and 7% on 3rd (if I'm understanding that correctly). So if you have an intake (like the stock one tune for 2nd pulse 5800-6800) then you get a 10% gain. Depending on the efficiency of the engine at that point, you could surpass 100% efficiency and having an NA motor act like it was receiving boost. Making more power than theoretically possible in normal atmospheric conditions.
The other side of this is intake size. if the intake were not large enough and you had 4" of vaccum, you'd be losing ~13% of your power just due to vaccuum. In this case it would be better to have a larger intake regardless of whether it was tuned or not. Gaining back that 13% could more important that trying to gain 10% with a 2nd order harmonic. But really, you want both.
If you understand this better than me, feel free to correct or add. Any questions, feel free to ask.
03-15-2009 | 11:20 PM
#129
I don't know it completely but here is the info as I have learned it.
the engine is 2.4 liters which means that can internally 'displace' 2.4 liters of air.
The problem with any combustion engine is that they are not 100% efficient so you have volumetric efficiency (what % of the 2.4 liters it can suck in) in the 90's peak. Let's say 95%. That makes the actual engine displacement utilized about 2.24 liters max. the max efficiency of the engine is where peak torque is in the rpm band.
After peak torque HP can still climb but the volumtric efficiency of the engine is declining. But moving on...The intake runners have air pulsing up and down them. This is from the valves opening and closing and occours at the speed of sound. These pressure waves can be utilized to force more air into the engine. Hence a 'tuned intake'. The length of the runner determines how long it takes for a wave to bounce back and forth and this determines what rpm the intake is suited for. the # of times the wave goes back and forth increases with shorter runners. ideally you would want one pulse because the wave would be strongest but the intake would have to be super long. So we shoot for the 2nd or 3rd pulse. As listed above you have 10% gain on 2nd pulse and 7% on 3rd (if I'm understanding that correctly). So if you have an intake (like the stock one tune for 2nd pulse 5800-6800) then you get a 10% gain. Depending on the efficiency of the engine at that point, you could surpass 100% efficiency and having an NA motor act like it was receiving boost. Making more power than theoretically possible in normal atmospheric conditions.
The other side of this is intake size. if the intake were not large enough and you had 4" of vaccum, you'd be losing ~13% of your power just due to vaccuum. In this case it would be better to have a larger intake regardless of whether it was tuned or not. Gaining back that 13% could more important that trying to gain 10% with a 2nd order harmonic. But really, you want both.
If you understand this better than me, feel free to correct or add. Any questions, feel free to ask.
the engine is 2.4 liters which means that can internally 'displace' 2.4 liters of air.
The problem with any combustion engine is that they are not 100% efficient so you have volumetric efficiency (what % of the 2.4 liters it can suck in) in the 90's peak. Let's say 95%. That makes the actual engine displacement utilized about 2.24 liters max. the max efficiency of the engine is where peak torque is in the rpm band.
After peak torque HP can still climb but the volumtric efficiency of the engine is declining. But moving on...The intake runners have air pulsing up and down them. This is from the valves opening and closing and occours at the speed of sound. These pressure waves can be utilized to force more air into the engine. Hence a 'tuned intake'. The length of the runner determines how long it takes for a wave to bounce back and forth and this determines what rpm the intake is suited for. the # of times the wave goes back and forth increases with shorter runners. ideally you would want one pulse because the wave would be strongest but the intake would have to be super long. So we shoot for the 2nd or 3rd pulse. As listed above you have 10% gain on 2nd pulse and 7% on 3rd (if I'm understanding that correctly). So if you have an intake (like the stock one tune for 2nd pulse 5800-6800) then you get a 10% gain. Depending on the efficiency of the engine at that point, you could surpass 100% efficiency and having an NA motor act like it was receiving boost. Making more power than theoretically possible in normal atmospheric conditions.
The other side of this is intake size. if the intake were not large enough and you had 4" of vaccum, you'd be losing ~13% of your power just due to vaccuum. In this case it would be better to have a larger intake regardless of whether it was tuned or not. Gaining back that 13% could more important that trying to gain 10% with a 2nd order harmonic. But really, you want both.
If you understand this better than me, feel free to correct or add. Any questions, feel free to ask.
most of that makes sense to me.. So what are the options? If that's the case you're saying the vulcan intake with velocity stacks is inneficient?
03-16-2009 | 01:07 AM
#132
03-16-2009 | 02:05 AM
#134
from vulcan's site
i got them to send me a pic of wut the velocity stack add on looks like..
http://www.vulcanturbo.com/intakemanifolds.html
This intake manifold is designed for turbocharged or N/A engine applications and features short tuned runners. 4" Long runners allow for quicker throttle responce and the HUGE 307 cu.in. collector makes for massive air flow. (OEM throttle body models use a
244cu-in collector) Available with or without velocty stacks this manifold is sure to add power to your setup. Manifold is constructed of 6061 aluminum, fully TIG welded, 4 vacuum ports, and fits all OEM throttle bodies. Comes powdercoated in a durable black finish. Velocity Stack are ideal for N/A setups. Shown with LS1 throttle body to the left, OEM style throttle bodies below. This manifold is not designed as an OEM replacement manifold. It requires the movement of the throttle body and intake tubing. Recommended for race or high performance applications. Allows for use of OEM MAP sensor, 1/2" brake booster line, and 2 other vacuum ports to support blow off valves, wastegates or fuel pressure regulator. Uses OEM o-ring gaskets. *2.0L Supercharged intake manifold setup includes IAT2 sensor port built in for a direct fit. Manifolds are available in custom colors upon request for no extra cost!
244cu-in collector) Available with or without velocty stacks this manifold is sure to add power to your setup. Manifold is constructed of 6061 aluminum, fully TIG welded, 4 vacuum ports, and fits all OEM throttle bodies. Comes powdercoated in a durable black finish. Velocity Stack are ideal for N/A setups. Shown with LS1 throttle body to the left, OEM style throttle bodies below. This manifold is not designed as an OEM replacement manifold. It requires the movement of the throttle body and intake tubing. Recommended for race or high performance applications. Allows for use of OEM MAP sensor, 1/2" brake booster line, and 2 other vacuum ports to support blow off valves, wastegates or fuel pressure regulator. Uses OEM o-ring gaskets. *2.0L Supercharged intake manifold setup includes IAT2 sensor port built in for a direct fit. Manifolds are available in custom colors upon request for no extra cost!
http://www.vulcanturbo.com/intakemanifolds.html
03-16-2009 | 02:13 AM
#135
Not a Sebring
Joined: 02-22-07
Posts: 12,863
Likes: 2
From: Northern VA
from vulcan's site
i got them to send me a pic of wut the velocity stack add on looks like..
http://www.vulcanturbo.com/intakemanifolds.html
i got them to send me a pic of wut the velocity stack add on looks like..
http://www.vulcanturbo.com/intakemanifolds.html
03-16-2009 | 02:16 AM
#136
Senior Member
Joined: 10-28-07
Posts: 3,713
Likes: 0
From: Tall Timbers, MD
from vulcan's site
i got them to send me a pic of wut the velocity stack add on looks like..
http://www.vulcanturbo.com/intakemanifolds.html
i got them to send me a pic of wut the velocity stack add on looks like..
http://www.vulcanturbo.com/intakemanifolds.html
but you still have to relocate everything. I would rather get the Hahn intake over that one.
that isn't bad at all, a custom intake manifold from what I have seen is above 1,000 dollars
03-16-2009 | 02:18 AM
#137
Not a Sebring
Joined: 02-22-07
Posts: 12,863
Likes: 2
From: Northern VA
Gotta focus on job stuff for a while until I can get back on my feet. Also trying to buy a beater soon to preserve the Cobalt.
03-16-2009 | 02:21 AM
#138
Senior Member
Joined: 10-28-07
Posts: 3,713
Likes: 0
From: Tall Timbers, MD
yah I understand, it is very hard to watch people mod'n with I am trying to be adult and save money. Getting married is costly and slows the hobbies down too.
03-16-2009 | 02:22 AM
#139
Not a Sebring
Joined: 02-22-07
Posts: 12,863
Likes: 2
From: Northern VA
03-16-2009 | 02:29 AM
#140
Senior Member
Joined: 10-28-07
Posts: 3,713
Likes: 0
From: Tall Timbers, MD
that is true, but it wont be official/legal until next year. Buuuuuuut I do have a savings account that is begging to be emptied and for me to have a full bolted carbon fiber NA machine thought. I am pretty close to having enough money to completely build the cobalt
03-16-2009 | 02:42 AM
#141
Not a Sebring
Joined: 02-22-07
Posts: 12,863
Likes: 2
From: Northern VA
Sweet dude.
03-16-2009 | 02:47 AM
#143
Not a Sebring
Joined: 02-22-07
Posts: 12,863
Likes: 2
From: Northern VA
03-16-2009 | 09:09 AM
#145
Air is flowing into the motor but when the intake valve closes and the air cannot stop right away. It 'bunches up' at the valve and then reflects back down the intake runner to the plenum (large area that the throttle body feeds). When it hits the plenum it bounces back toward the valve. If you open the valve right when this wave is coming back, you get a boost in airflow into the cylinder.
This is like an echo. If the valve is not open when the wave comes back, the wave will reflect again and go back to the plenum, reflect and come back again. It works like an echo in a canyon. Just as in the echo effect, each time you hear a reflection it gets weaker.
The pressure wave moves at the speed of sound so you can calculate how long it will take it to travel up and down a runner based on how long the runner is. The longer the runner, the longer it takes to hit the valve bounce off the plenum and come back to the valve. The talk about 2nd, 3rd order and so on is how many times this wave has bounced back and forth before getting to the valve and having it be open.
---------------
Now if you're intake is really small, then the above doesn't matter because it's like sucking air through a straw. At this point you don't need to talk about waves, you need a larger straw or 'intake runners'. This could be the case on the 2.4, we don't know yet. If it is, then the Vulcan would work just fine but the ideal would be something with larger runners and tuned intake port lengths.
This is like an echo. If the valve is not open when the wave comes back, the wave will reflect again and go back to the plenum, reflect and come back again. It works like an echo in a canyon. Just as in the echo effect, each time you hear a reflection it gets weaker.
The pressure wave moves at the speed of sound so you can calculate how long it will take it to travel up and down a runner based on how long the runner is. The longer the runner, the longer it takes to hit the valve bounce off the plenum and come back to the valve. The talk about 2nd, 3rd order and so on is how many times this wave has bounced back and forth before getting to the valve and having it be open.
---------------
Now if you're intake is really small, then the above doesn't matter because it's like sucking air through a straw. At this point you don't need to talk about waves, you need a larger straw or 'intake runners'. This could be the case on the 2.4, we don't know yet. If it is, then the Vulcan would work just fine but the ideal would be something with larger runners and tuned intake port lengths.
03-16-2009 | 10:00 AM
#146
nope not bad..only thing u really gotta move if i read it right is a new short ram or cold air intake
03-16-2009 | 10:07 AM
#147
Senior Member
Joined: 10-28-07
Posts: 3,713
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From: Tall Timbers, MD
03-16-2009 | 12:48 PM
#149
Not a Sebring
Joined: 02-22-07
Posts: 12,863
Likes: 2
From: Northern VA