Here in Boise we have readily available c16 and c10 at the pump at united oil, my dp will be finished (hopefully today) soon. I would like to first, put my lnf on c16 then later about a 100 hp direct port or 150 hp direct port progressive nitrous system. I would like to know if I will be running into any issues as far as tuning, with 100 percent C16 or C10? I am expecting the effects of the lead on the o2 sensors already, i'm more curious about the DI and having enough fueling capabilities on the new fuel, right now i'm on about 25% e85 93 Octane. The nitrous system we will start with a 50hp shot and work our way up to the 150hp shot, and we are tuning on HP tuners.

 

standalone fuel system or are you running C16 100% of the time?

 

Isn't C16 leaded?

Whatever they have that's unleaded is what you want, unless you want to tempt fate with leaded fuels..

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/c-16-spec.html

 

Other than the affect on the o2 sensors what problems would the c16 cause? The down pipe will be catless. And I suppose the car will be on c16 all the time.

 

Since the LNF runs in closed loop 90% of the time....you can't just disregard the effect on the O2 sensor

 

It'll ruin the O2 sensors, and you CANNOT open loop tune your car. (not that I've known or heard of) why not just run VP100?

 

I just found out I can only get vp 110 here in boise. Which is leaded. People say you can go 20k on leaded before it completely kills the o2 sensor. But who knows weather that's really true or not.... The new sensor is between 85 and 150 bucks to replace....

 

You have no idea how this car works. You will not just damage the O2 sensor. You will likely trash the entire engine once the O2 sensor starts flaking out, but before it throws any codes.

Like everyone said before. This car runs in closed loop all the time.

 

SO how does zzp get away with running race gas in thier car?

 

they run unleaded

 

Except at greater than ~230% air loads when the stars are in alignment.

Avoid leaded fuel.

 

ahh... let me correct myself..going off of what other people said you cannot get unleaded racefuel in boise...that would be wrong, you can get vp 104 here... but its 9.48 a gallon... holy crap

 

Same reason I wouldn't run water/meth injection on this car. It is too unpredictable due to the fact that the ECU wants to run in closed loop all the time.

You need consistency to run a good WI setup, and if the ECU is constantly trying to yank fuel due to the sudden injection, I don't see how you can get a consistent result at transitions.

 

You can order it online also.

And just because you can't get A doesn't mean you should run B because you can get it

 

Don't know about other people but my vette torched an 02 within 500 miles of using c16 but I use alot of fuel. What we have done though is use standalone fuel systems for nitrous filled with C16 that would be the only course I recomend if your set on c16

 

so how did you fix the issue with it torching the o2 sensor

 

started using 93 octane with meth lol. lead kills 02's there is no way around it. but if you use c16 only while spraying the 02 should theoretically last 50 or 60 bottles most people can live with buying an 02 that often

 

and if your going direct port you should have a standalone low pressure fuel system anyway so it's kind of a no brainer

 

No they dont. 110 from speedway. After thinking about it in the LNF they might run unleaded.

 

See, thats what I thought they were doing, I had a friend who ran full c-16 in is SRT-4 for over 20k miles and it never screwed with the o2 sensors, and where the Wideband is in our cars do you think it could possibly keep it hot enough to keep the lead burnt off the sensor? I have also heard that sensors with the pre-heaters can also help keep the sensor hot enough to keep it clean as well, which our wideband does have, and the secondary in my car is shut off anyway so really I don't care if it gets chuck full of lead... lol Anyway, just trying to learn more about what i'm up against here.

As for the nitrous system, I have a great tuner who will be setting up my nitrous system that has set up quite a few of them so i'm sure we'll figure something out in that dept.

Oh and I did for get to mention, we will be mixing the race fuel for my car, 1/3 to 2/3 93 oct to start and be adjusting the mixture as needed.

 

It wouldn't hurt if matt were to come tell us what fuel they were actually running, it would solve the argument quickly lol

 

QUOTE=Matt M;4588532]As many of you know, ZZPerformance has been pushing to find the limits of the LNF. I installed a prototype ZZP turbo upgrade last spring, but quickly maxed the fuel system. As others had found, 400whp is pretty much the limit. I decided to go back to the stock turbo until we had a fix for the fuel system. We ported the cylinder head, which significantly increased HP at the same boost level. Unfortunately, the max boost we could push from the stock turbo decreased so much that we saw very little HP gain overall. Next, we set a goal to hit 11s on the stock turbo. Within a couple months, I hit an 11.99 at US131 Motorsports Park in Martin, MI. We met our goal, but the stock turbo was maxed. This setup put down 338whp. One day while taking voltage readings from the fuel pressure sensor, an idea popped into my head. I decided to alter the signal being sent to the ECM to trick the ECM into raising the fuel pressure. We put together a simple device to decrease the voltage and the car ran very rich. We decided to make a dyno pull. The result was promising- the WOT air fuel had dropped from mid 12s all the way to high 9s. We backed off the voltage drop a bit and then tuned in the fueling. This mod gave us less than 10whp on the stock turbo, with a peak of 345whp(sae), but we knew it would be much more valuable on turbo swap cars.

The next step was to install the latest prototype ZZP turbo swap. This kit included a Bullseye/Borg Warner S256 extended tip turbo. With the fuel pressure mod in place and now able to take advantage of the ported cylinder head, we quickly surpassed 500whp. On 110 octane, and fuel pressure increased to more than 3400psi, I made a best pull of 530whp sae at 27psi. At 23 psi, this setup was good for 11.40s at nearly 127mph in the 1/4. However, I felt that a smaller turbo may be better suited for daily drivers while still offering 450whp potential. We decided to test out the S252 extended tip turbo and set it up with a smaller exhaust wheel for quick response. We also decided that it would be best to re-install the stock cylinder head to more accurately set up a mail order tune for our turbo swap kit. While the motor was apart, we took the next step to thoroughly examine the internals.

This is what we found-

All four connecting rods were bent. Ouch. We are currently working with two top name connecting rod manufacturers on a cost effective solution. We are also planning to sell forged pistons, likely from JE. While my motor is apart waiting on upgraded rods and pistons, we installed the stock shortblock from one of our parts cars as well as the original stock cylinder head.

Next, I contacted Vince from Trifecta about teaming up on our ECM file for our turbo swap kits. He agreed and set up a base file for us with adjustments made to the fuel pressure tables. We currently have the max fuel pressure set at 2800psi. On paper, this showed potential for approximately 60whp gains over stock fuel pressure. This would allow us to reach our goal of 450whp on the S252et turbo.

Initial dyno testing has been successful. I started out with 110 octane for a safety margin while experimenting. After a few pulls, I was able to put down 457whp at 23psi. This pull pushed the limits of the fuel system once again. After the tune was complete, I drained the gas and switched over to 93 octane. Unfortunately, it is undesireable winter blend 93. After a handful of pulls, the best run was 425whp at 22psi. I believe we should be able to achieve 435-440whp once we get the cam tables dialed in and add a little more boost. These are uncorrected dyno numbers. While we normally post corrected numbers, actual HP numbers are more relevant when discussing fuel system limitations.

Here are the dyno charts-


I still have to work on the ECM boost control. A slight boost fade will allow more power through the midrange without maxing out the fuel system in the higher RPMs. While testing multiple boost levels at multiple RPMs, I pushed boost into the mid 30s at 3700 RPM. This resulted in a torque reading of over 500 ft lbs! Furthermore, at 29psi, this setup surpassed 400whp at less then 5000 RPM.

Thanks for reading this long post. I will have more updates and pics soon…[/QUOTE]



He is actually running 110, which is leaded.

 

There is a 109 unleaded

 

just try it out worst case scenario the 02 goes bad. if you got the money for direct port and $15.50 a gallon gas then an 02 should be no biggie