Area47

dual 7's eh? how much power did you put down? mmmmmm?

i guess some people and blind to the fact that math plays a huge role in this setup/

you want a simple answer, download the calculator on the devils own site.

Steven Flit

Yessir, dual 7gphs

Just switched to a 2.6 and those nozzles as of a couple days ago.

WOT MAF will be dialed in prob. tonight.

Area47

too much being dumped in the motor. you're not pushing 800whp. you don't need duals.

AIS

That calculator is not accurate. Found that out a long time ago. It only factors the following.

MAX RPM
MAX Boost
Engine Liters

Doesn't take into account for the following

Horsepower
Type Supercharger/Turbocharger
Intercooled or non-intercooled
Type of fluid being sprayed
Elevation
Gasoline, Diesel, E85 etc

You really want me to post the name to his company?

I called this company to inquire about having a nozzle machined. Machining nozzles is what they do. I had no idea they made your nozzle until they sent me a few samples of your nozzle. They never mentioned your name and just said we have something you might be interested in and we already make it. Would you like for us to send you a sample?

They offered to sell us nozzles after you guys couldn't pay for the nozzles you committed to and agreed you would pay for in 12 months. You left them with the balance of thousands of nozzles. This isn't the deal they wanted. Their not in the business of sitting on thousands of dollars worth of nozzles you guys didn't want to accept and pay for.

If you guys didn't leave them with all those nozzles. They wouldn't sell them to us or anyone else. Sorry but why would we have them machine a new nozzle design when they want to unload these nozzles?

Rodney

Area47

MY PERSONAL findings on various setups, over 150+ dyno pulls on said set ups, i do think i know a thing or two about meth injection and the lsj setup.

go road racing with a 10gph nozzle, or dual 7's, or a 14 gph nozzle and watch what happens to your throttle transition out of the corners.

fuel consumption
rpm
injector size
airflow as a whole.

it's all fine and dandy to sell the stuff to customers. i have no qualms about this. what i have a problem with is selling the wrong nozzle in the first place

DangotBoost

What he said ^

Steven Flit

So what your saying is that a 10gph, 2 7gph, or a 14 gph work in every real world applications... kinda sorta like that print screen i posted

My personal findings...

Funny you say those nozzles effect throttle transition out of a corner. I frequent my local mtn twisties often, and have yet to encounter any undesired side effect. I lied... I have a whole lot of fuel comsumption, but that's due to my lead foot, high RPMS and 20 miles of twisties

AIS

Since this is Harry Resh's thread. In no way is a number 10 to big for his engine and stats he gave us.

Harrop supercharger running 25 psi
Estimate 340 Wheel Horsepower
Running a 50/50 mix

Its interesting if you think that's the wrong size nozzle for a combination like that. He would have no problem with drivability or throttle response using that size nozzle. Its not the first time we've done this either.

Did a lot of testing too on Eatons and Kenne Bells looking specifically at jetting and its effect on knock control, cooling and engine performance. No problem running a number 10 GPH nozzle on a 340 horsepower engine moving that much air and running that much boost/heat. Its not a 270 WHP Cobalt. So its really unfortunate you convinced Harry into downsizing to a 5 GPH nozzle and sending his number 10 back to us with his combination he's putting together.

The main purpose of water methanol injection is ultimately knock control. Help preventing it from happening so to avoid engine damage caused by it. Basically octane on demand with cooling capabilities tied with it. Do you want to have just enough knock control to run your combination and timing or do you want to have a bigger safety margin and higher threshold for which detonation occurs?

You also have to remember you can't rely on the knock sensor. I know you can agree on this. Its great these vehicles have them but by no means can you rely on them 100%. Because you don't see anything showing up on HP tuners doesn't mean you can't have one cylinder experiencing it. On that note. Not all the cylinders are running the same. Some are going to get more water meth benefits then others. So I don't like to run just the minimum jetting. I want to make sure that customer has plenty of knock control and doesn't ever come back and say he still hurt his motor because it was under jetted.

I run with the theory if the engine doesn't bog and loose power, go bigger on the jetting. The engine will let you know when your spraying to much as it will eventually bog and loose power when running a mixture containing large percentages of water. There's simply no way to tune around to much water. I've worked with a lot customers and there cars and done tests on different vehicles so that I can get a better gauge on what different applications can take.

We just don't throw the biggest nozzle at it. We've put a lot of work into understanding jetting in combination with different mixtures. Plus, I have found various reasons for running different type of mixes. Thats a whole big subject in its own.

A perfect example of this was recently on the clubrsx.com forum. It originally started with someone asking for me to come over and post on their water methanol injection thread they had running. I went over there and saw how everyone was running really small nozzles (5 GPh nozzles) on there Eaton supercharged Acura's making between 300-400 horsepower. Just to prove my point I sent one guy a number 7, 10 and 14 GPh nozzle and had him tune for each and see which worked the best and made the most power. I was surprised to see he was able to make his best gains running the 14, as I though the 10 GOH nozzle was going to be the biggest he could run. I was wrong and he showed everyone on his own that the 14 worked the best and allowed him to post his best numbers on the dyno.

He's super stoked now because the car pulls much harder and it was as simple as rejetting it. Now everyone is buying bigger nozzles. Some running a single 14 on the lower 300 horsepower cars. While others are running a 10 plus 7 on the 350-400 horsepower Acura's. They have the ability to control second nozzle on a solenoid with the Kpro.

Here's a link to that thread. Its long so start at page 27 and read from there on.

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread...t=meth&page=27

Rodney

Area47

id like to inform you, he is NO WHERE near 340 whp. 97% of the lsj people dream of this anyways.

how about this. strap an lsj to the rollers. you tune the car with what ever nozzle you want, then i will come in, redo it all and see who makes more power. i have been down this road a lot more times than most people think. do YOU have enough hands on experience with your product to know what works right and doesn't in this application? i am guessing no.

"it moves x amount of air at peak efficiency, it needs this size nozzle" what happens when you're part throttle, just tipping into pe, then the meth kicks on with a 14gph nozzle?

mmmmmmm?

theory and fact often collide head on.

Bika

iTrader: (3)

7gph will be more than enough for that set up, personal experience.
Who the **** runs a 50/50 mix? 75/25 that bish.

Steven Flit

p.e. @ part throttle...

why in the world would you be in P.E. @ part throttle.

RooTBeeR

iTrader: (4)

whats wrong with 50/50?

Bika

iTrader: (3)

Why wouldnt you? if you are 50 or 75 percent throttle creating say 10+ psi at maybe 5k rpms (just hypothetical numbers), why wouldnt you want to add fuel by engaging PE? Definitely will want more than stoich. I engage mine at 2500rpm and 2psi. it avoids that "v-tec" feeling when suddenly at 3k or 4k it starts adding the proper amt of fuel...

Wek sos. less timing can be used. more cooling though...

RooTBeeR

iTrader: (4)

...mine does that crap, i need it to come on at a lower psi still lol

shaunmcdee

Im going to have to agree with Area. Me and Hunter killer have had the same talk about giant meth nozzles. There just isnt any need for that much. 10 gph with a 150 psi pump is really pushing it.

Here are my findings with a 2.6 and a 5gph nozzle, thru the throttle body.
Other notable mods that would effect temps are: FMHE, dual pass, ported head

Area47

my pe kicks in at 120 kpa. regardless of rpm, or tps, or gear. why? more air requires more fuel.

40% throttle in every gear is not going to hit at the exact same point. it may kick in at 10 inhg, or 6 psi of pressure. if you' re having pe kick in at 10 psi, you are creating unneeded egt's.

harryresh

iTrader: (6)

id rather run a smaller nozzle w/ a stronger meth mix

Bika

iTrader: (3)

thats a better way of putting what I was trying to say.

devilsown

I look at things this way. this is something i try to instill in people. Is bigger is not always better.
If you run a nozzle that too small for an application you will still get some cooling from it and lower intake air temps. Just not as low that is possable. but you are still making more power than not running meth injection.

If you go to big your engine going to need to pull fuel to make the motor run good. This is not something people that are not familar with tunning should do much of. I have seen people send me hp logs and tunes that the have pulled as much as 20% fuel out to make the car make power. To many what ifs in my book for me to tune my own personal cars this way.

Any of our customers having issues tunning meth to your car are always welcome to send me log file and there tune file by email to me and i can go over them

AIS

I noticed your only running 11.5 degree's of timing? How come?

Rodney

EXsoccer1921

iTrader: (14)

if you notice...it says "12/26/2009 7:02 pm....

and on the 26th at 7:05 is was 49* where he lives.... so i'm gonna say he's at 11.5 cause its winter. not trying to be an ass....just sayin

AIS

I'm from California and grew up just outside LA so I'm familiar with the cool nights out there.

What does the cold weather have to do with him running only 11.5 degree's of timing. And why is his IAT1 showing 101 degree's on a 49 degree night?

Rodney

shaunmcdee

Hey Rodney, I was out tuning the car when i took that log.

Nah, this is an old log. Sometime in the summer. I stopped sometime back trying to make the blower work with me. Ive gone a different route.

AIS

Yeah, I noticed you had no timing in the tune and was wondering why?

Rodney

shaunmcdee

Ya no biggy. When I'm tuning for fuel, I pull out alot of timing. The longer your in the gears, the more data you gather at a quicker rate because your car is going slower than normal.