View Poll Results: Downshift or neutral
Downshift
284
52.50%
neutral
257
47.50%
Voters: 541. You may not vote on this poll
Downshift or neutral??
12-03-2007, 05:59 PM
#201
Senior Member
vvvv What ky said. Downshifting should be last on your list. Learn it, but only when you're comfortable with everything else.
I feel really really REALLY bad, I feel like I'm the reason you've lost confidence. You were just so worried about not doing harm to your car, I figured you'd want to know that what you were doing was harmful.
Hills are nothing to be scared of, it's a mind game. That's all it is. Like I said about my cousin, she was fine with the cones. She KNEW she wasn't going to hit them. Replace a cone with a car and she flipped completely out.
You'll get it, really, you will. When you do, you'll love it. I look back at me learning and I laugh now. I cannot tell you though how many times I sat in tears, beat my fist off the steering wheel, mother ****'ed my car up one side and down the other, and wanted to RUN back to the dealer and get my Cavalier back.
It took me a good 2 months before I got that OMG what am I going to do feeling out of my stomach on hills. The more you panic the worse you are. Do ANYTHING when you're nervous and you're not going to do as well. Take a breath, relax, shake it off. You're not going to have trouble forever. It's just harder because the only things comparable are experiences we had in childhood. Learning how to ride a bike - we all fell, we all wobbled on training wheels, it wasn't a smooth process. Learning how to rollerskate, how to ride a horse, hell, learning how to walk. SAME process - different activity. But because most people have had 10 years or more in between learning those and learning how to drive a stick, we forget how frustrating it can be.
And just think, eventually you're going to know someone who's learning and you'll get the experience of sharing all your fun, embarassing stories with them too.
Like the engine speed bumps. LOL, starting off in first, you give it TOO much gas, panic, back off, get back on and by now it looks like the car is bunny hopping down the road. In all seriousness, I did this my first time on a busy road and the women passing me POINTED and LAUGHED, I saw them shift, and they drove off. They weren't just any women either - they were friggin NUNS. I got laughed at by nuns. Screw taking the car back, I wanted to die of humiliation.
I feel really really REALLY bad, I feel like I'm the reason you've lost confidence. You were just so worried about not doing harm to your car, I figured you'd want to know that what you were doing was harmful.
Hills are nothing to be scared of, it's a mind game. That's all it is. Like I said about my cousin, she was fine with the cones. She KNEW she wasn't going to hit them. Replace a cone with a car and she flipped completely out.
You'll get it, really, you will. When you do, you'll love it. I look back at me learning and I laugh now. I cannot tell you though how many times I sat in tears, beat my fist off the steering wheel, mother ****'ed my car up one side and down the other, and wanted to RUN back to the dealer and get my Cavalier back.
It took me a good 2 months before I got that OMG what am I going to do feeling out of my stomach on hills. The more you panic the worse you are. Do ANYTHING when you're nervous and you're not going to do as well. Take a breath, relax, shake it off. You're not going to have trouble forever. It's just harder because the only things comparable are experiences we had in childhood. Learning how to ride a bike - we all fell, we all wobbled on training wheels, it wasn't a smooth process. Learning how to rollerskate, how to ride a horse, hell, learning how to walk. SAME process - different activity. But because most people have had 10 years or more in between learning those and learning how to drive a stick, we forget how frustrating it can be.
And just think, eventually you're going to know someone who's learning and you'll get the experience of sharing all your fun, embarassing stories with them too.Like the engine speed bumps. LOL, starting off in first, you give it TOO much gas, panic, back off, get back on and by now it looks like the car is bunny hopping down the road. In all seriousness, I did this my first time on a busy road and the women passing me POINTED and LAUGHED, I saw them shift, and they drove off. They weren't just any women either - they were friggin NUNS. I got laughed at by nuns. Screw taking the car back, I wanted to die of humiliation.
No, no Alley, don't feel bad. I am GLAD you told me. Yes it shook my confidence, as I thought I had learned correctly and I was decent at it only after learning for 3 days. It was a dose of reality I need it. I thank you a whole lot for it. You all know more than I do, I am glad you would tell me. Earlier today i was recovering from a bad yesterday, and kind of touchy, but I took a breather, thought about it, and rationalized. I just have a lot to work on is all. Life is learning.
Hell, I occasionally try to launch to fast and bunny hop her all the way down the street, its embarassing and breaks my confidence, but I get right back on after falling.
Just to be sure, because I decided I am going to jump right into it when I go back home. If I am coming to a light, I should be down shifting down to 2nd...then when I stop with the clutch and brake down, I should pop it into neutral and just hold the brake? Then when the light is getting ready to turn green, put it into first after pushing the clutch down with my foot still on the brake, start lifting off to the friction point, then launch?
12-03-2007, 06:18 PM
#202
No, no Alley, don't feel bad. I am GLAD you told me. Yes it shook my confidence, as I thought I had learned correctly and I was decent at it only after learning for 3 days. It was a dose of reality I need it. I thank you a whole lot for it. You all know more than I do, I am glad you would tell me. Earlier today i was recovering from a bad yesterday, and kind of touchy, but I took a breather, thought about it, and rationalized. I just have a lot to work on is all. Life is learning.
Hell, I occasionally try to launch to fast and bunny hop her all the way down the street, its embarassing and breaks my confidence, but I get right back on after falling.
Just to be sure, because I decided I am going to jump right into it when I go back home. If I am coming to a light, I should be down shifting down to 2nd...then when I stop with the clutch and brake down, I should pop it into neutral and just hold the brake? Then when the light is getting ready to turn green, put it into first after pushing the clutch down with my foot still on the brake, start lifting off to the friction point, then launch?
Hell, I occasionally try to launch to fast and bunny hop her all the way down the street, its embarassing and breaks my confidence, but I get right back on after falling.
Just to be sure, because I decided I am going to jump right into it when I go back home. If I am coming to a light, I should be down shifting down to 2nd...then when I stop with the clutch and brake down, I should pop it into neutral and just hold the brake? Then when the light is getting ready to turn green, put it into first after pushing the clutch down with my foot still on the brake, start lifting off to the friction point, then launch?
12-03-2007, 06:21 PM
#203
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Downshifting
There are a few reasons to downshift:
1. You need to accelerate quickly, usually for passing.
2. You are going to slow down but not stop, and then re-accelerate, usually for a turn, or changing traffic speed.
3. You are going down a long decline, you can put it in a lower gear to have engine braking maintain speed without riding and burning up your brakes.
There are many different ways of doing just about anything in a manual, and this is especially true of downshifting. It's largely a matter of preference and driver style. The basic choices are:
* Rev-matched vs. non rev-matched
* Single clutch vs. double clutch
* What gear you are going to downshift to.
There are various situations that would call for a downshift, and every shift is different. Generally, quicker downshifts at medium to high revs should be rev-matched, while slower and lower downshifts, usually accompanied by braking, can be done without a rev-match if desired. Many people rev-match almost every downshift.
Many decisions will be based on your specific car and it's gearing and powerband. Below are some common situations and examples of how to handle them.
Cruising in 5th in the lower portion of your powerband and you need to pass quickly. You may have a little power down there but your real power is up higher and you need to go. You downshift to 4th (or maybe even 3rd depending on your car, speed, etc.). It is generally recommended that this be done with a rev-matched downshift in order to be quick and smooth, and avoid sudden engine braking and excess clutch wear. The process is outlined below:
Single clutch rev matched downshift
1. Off gas
2. Clutch in
3. Blip throttle (learning how much will be a process of practice)
4. Shift to lower gear
5. Clutch out
6. On gas
Double clutch rev matched downshift
1. Off gas
2. Clutch in
3. Shift to neutral
4. Clutch out
5. Blip throttle
6. Clutch in
7. Shift to lower gear
8. Clutch out
9. On gas
Now of course that's written as a list but it's been pointed out that you can't really think if it like a list of steps of what to do. Each one flows into the next and it's a very quick, smooth action. Especially numbers 3 and 4 from the single clutch downshift, generally you will blip the throttle and move the shifter at the same time.
Turning. You're coming up to a turn in 5th gear. Depending on your car and the speed of the turn, you will probably need 2nd or 3rd when you come out of the turn. You should try to finish both downshifting and braking before turning. There are numerous ways to achieve this. You can rev-match directly to the desired gear and then begin braking, intersperse sequential rev-matched downshifts with braking until you reach your desired gear, brake slightly early and rev-match into the desired gear after releasing the brakes and right before turning, or do a non rev matched downshift going to the turn as outlined below.
Non rev matched downshift (Recommended to be done at low revs, usually while braking)
1. Begin braking for the turn
2. When the revs reach a low level (idle to 1.5k or so), clutch in
3. Continue braking while you shift to the lower gear
4. Wait until you are just about to finish braking and then let the clutch out slowly and smoothly
Approaching a relatively steep downhill grade in 5th gear. At the top of the hill you can do a rev-matched downshift to a gear that will help you maintain a constant speed going downhill. Learning which gears for what grades will come with experience, but 4th is usually a good place to start.
Hand Brake Method
For starting on inclines
1) the hand brake method- Verrry simple. -You put the hand brake all the way up. -let go the foot brake -disengage clutch (push it in) -rev engine- like you usually would before taking off -let the clutch out till it gets to the catch point- at this point you will feel the car want to move -keep the clutch at the friction point when the car wants to move -let the hand brake all the way down -add a little or ease off gas- depending on how high the rpms are ( you know- just like you would when starting not from an incline) & let off the catch point. - your moving! and you didn't move backwards a single millimeter
Alternative to hand brake:
2) -right foot on brake- left foot on clutch - let out clutch to catch point -quickly move right foot from brake to accelerator & keep a constant rev -get off the clutch - let it slip real quick -add gas - voila
Speed Bumps / Humps
For a speed bump: 1. approach in 2nd 2. brake to very slow speed 3. clutch in 4. coast the front wheels over 5. now if still over 5mph slip the clutch a little in 2nd to creep the back wheels over 5b. if under 5mph drop it into 1st and do a "slow start" to pull the back wheels over
for a speed hump, you can probably creep over it with a little bit of gas in 2nd without ever clutching in.
Alternative: For speed bump (taken at much slower speeds than humps), slow down to almost a stop, shift into gear 1, and ease over it.
Also many people just approach the bump/hump, clutch in, and coast over it. Then grab 2nd or 1st depending on speed and go.
No Rev-Match Downshifting
There are a few reasons for a no-rev match downshift:
1. You have already braked so much that your RPMs have dropped almost to idle and you are on the brink of lugging so you need to downshift.
2. You have not quite mastered the rev-matched downshift quite yet, but still want to get in the habit of downshifting before a turn.
The no rev-match downshift is pretty self explanatory but here are some pointers:
1. Make sure your revs are low enough to attempt to downshift without rev-matching. By low I mean from 1-1.5k.
2. When downshifting, hold the clutch in for about one second for the RPMs to drop a little more.
3. Do not dump the clutch, rather bring it out slowly, like you would a normal launch.
4. ALWAYS finish your shifts BEFORE you turn.
Here are some example scenarios:
A. You are traveling 30 miles in 3rd gear and approaching a 90 degree turn.
1. Start braking and wait for your rpms to drop.
2. Once your Rpms are around 1.5K clutch in and shift down to second.
3. Hold clutch in until RPMS drop to about 1k and let out.
4. Take the turn.
B. You are traveling 45 mph in 4th and you suddenly have to slow down to 30 because of a slow car.
1. Start breaking until your RPMs drop again to 1.5K
2. Again, once your Rpms are around 1.5K clutch in and shift down to Third.
3. Hold clutch in until RPMS drop to about 1k and let out.
Remember that Rev-match when your in doubt, but remember you do not always have to rev-match in certain situations.
There are a few reasons to downshift:
1. You need to accelerate quickly, usually for passing.
2. You are going to slow down but not stop, and then re-accelerate, usually for a turn, or changing traffic speed.
3. You are going down a long decline, you can put it in a lower gear to have engine braking maintain speed without riding and burning up your brakes.
There are many different ways of doing just about anything in a manual, and this is especially true of downshifting. It's largely a matter of preference and driver style. The basic choices are:
* Rev-matched vs. non rev-matched
* Single clutch vs. double clutch
* What gear you are going to downshift to.
There are various situations that would call for a downshift, and every shift is different. Generally, quicker downshifts at medium to high revs should be rev-matched, while slower and lower downshifts, usually accompanied by braking, can be done without a rev-match if desired. Many people rev-match almost every downshift.
Many decisions will be based on your specific car and it's gearing and powerband. Below are some common situations and examples of how to handle them.
Cruising in 5th in the lower portion of your powerband and you need to pass quickly. You may have a little power down there but your real power is up higher and you need to go. You downshift to 4th (or maybe even 3rd depending on your car, speed, etc.). It is generally recommended that this be done with a rev-matched downshift in order to be quick and smooth, and avoid sudden engine braking and excess clutch wear. The process is outlined below:
Single clutch rev matched downshift
1. Off gas
2. Clutch in
3. Blip throttle (learning how much will be a process of practice)
4. Shift to lower gear
5. Clutch out
6. On gas
Double clutch rev matched downshift
1. Off gas
2. Clutch in
3. Shift to neutral
4. Clutch out
5. Blip throttle
6. Clutch in
7. Shift to lower gear
8. Clutch out
9. On gas
Now of course that's written as a list but it's been pointed out that you can't really think if it like a list of steps of what to do. Each one flows into the next and it's a very quick, smooth action. Especially numbers 3 and 4 from the single clutch downshift, generally you will blip the throttle and move the shifter at the same time.
Turning. You're coming up to a turn in 5th gear. Depending on your car and the speed of the turn, you will probably need 2nd or 3rd when you come out of the turn. You should try to finish both downshifting and braking before turning. There are numerous ways to achieve this. You can rev-match directly to the desired gear and then begin braking, intersperse sequential rev-matched downshifts with braking until you reach your desired gear, brake slightly early and rev-match into the desired gear after releasing the brakes and right before turning, or do a non rev matched downshift going to the turn as outlined below.
Non rev matched downshift (Recommended to be done at low revs, usually while braking)
1. Begin braking for the turn
2. When the revs reach a low level (idle to 1.5k or so), clutch in
3. Continue braking while you shift to the lower gear
4. Wait until you are just about to finish braking and then let the clutch out slowly and smoothly
Approaching a relatively steep downhill grade in 5th gear. At the top of the hill you can do a rev-matched downshift to a gear that will help you maintain a constant speed going downhill. Learning which gears for what grades will come with experience, but 4th is usually a good place to start.
Hand Brake Method
For starting on inclines
1) the hand brake method- Verrry simple. -You put the hand brake all the way up. -let go the foot brake -disengage clutch (push it in) -rev engine- like you usually would before taking off -let the clutch out till it gets to the catch point- at this point you will feel the car want to move -keep the clutch at the friction point when the car wants to move -let the hand brake all the way down -add a little or ease off gas- depending on how high the rpms are ( you know- just like you would when starting not from an incline) & let off the catch point. - your moving! and you didn't move backwards a single millimeter
Alternative to hand brake:
2) -right foot on brake- left foot on clutch - let out clutch to catch point -quickly move right foot from brake to accelerator & keep a constant rev -get off the clutch - let it slip real quick -add gas - voila
Speed Bumps / Humps
For a speed bump: 1. approach in 2nd 2. brake to very slow speed 3. clutch in 4. coast the front wheels over 5. now if still over 5mph slip the clutch a little in 2nd to creep the back wheels over 5b. if under 5mph drop it into 1st and do a "slow start" to pull the back wheels over
for a speed hump, you can probably creep over it with a little bit of gas in 2nd without ever clutching in.
Alternative: For speed bump (taken at much slower speeds than humps), slow down to almost a stop, shift into gear 1, and ease over it.
Also many people just approach the bump/hump, clutch in, and coast over it. Then grab 2nd or 1st depending on speed and go.
No Rev-Match Downshifting
There are a few reasons for a no-rev match downshift:
1. You have already braked so much that your RPMs have dropped almost to idle and you are on the brink of lugging so you need to downshift.
2. You have not quite mastered the rev-matched downshift quite yet, but still want to get in the habit of downshifting before a turn.
The no rev-match downshift is pretty self explanatory but here are some pointers:
1. Make sure your revs are low enough to attempt to downshift without rev-matching. By low I mean from 1-1.5k.
2. When downshifting, hold the clutch in for about one second for the RPMs to drop a little more.
3. Do not dump the clutch, rather bring it out slowly, like you would a normal launch.
4. ALWAYS finish your shifts BEFORE you turn.
Here are some example scenarios:
A. You are traveling 30 miles in 3rd gear and approaching a 90 degree turn.
1. Start braking and wait for your rpms to drop.
2. Once your Rpms are around 1.5K clutch in and shift down to second.
3. Hold clutch in until RPMS drop to about 1k and let out.
4. Take the turn.
B. You are traveling 45 mph in 4th and you suddenly have to slow down to 30 because of a slow car.
1. Start breaking until your RPMs drop again to 1.5K
2. Again, once your Rpms are around 1.5K clutch in and shift down to Third.
3. Hold clutch in until RPMS drop to about 1k and let out.
Remember that Rev-match when your in doubt, but remember you do not always have to rev-match in certain situations.
12-03-2007, 07:04 PM
#205
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Double clutch rev matched downshift
1. Off gas
2. Clutch in
3. Shift to neutral
4. Clutch out
5. Blip throttle
6. Clutch in
7. Shift to lower gear
8. Clutch out
9. On gas
1. Off gas
2. Clutch in
3. Shift to neutral
4. Clutch out
5. Blip throttle
6. Clutch in
7. Shift to lower gear
8. Clutch out
9. On gas
1. Let off gas
2. Pull car out of gear into neutral
3. Push clutch in
4. Shift into gear
5. Release the clutch and apply the gas at the same time.
Any comments on this?
later
12-03-2007, 07:11 PM
#206
Not to start problems but by buddy says its horrible to do that and its not really double clutching. This is his example for his version of double clutching.
1. Let off gas
2. Pull car out of gear into neutral
3. Push clutch in
4. Shift into gear
5. Release the clutch and apply the gas at the same time.
Any comments on this?
later
1. Let off gas
2. Pull car out of gear into neutral
3. Push clutch in
4. Shift into gear
5. Release the clutch and apply the gas at the same time.
Any comments on this?
later
12-03-2007, 07:13 PM
#207
Not to start problems but by buddy says its horrible to do that and its not really double clutching. This is his example for his version of double clutching.
1. Let off gas
2. Pull car out of gear into neutral
3. Push clutch in
4. Shift into gear
5. Release the clutch and apply the gas at the same time.
Any comments on this?
later
1. Let off gas
2. Pull car out of gear into neutral
3. Push clutch in
4. Shift into gear
5. Release the clutch and apply the gas at the same time.
Any comments on this?
later
Thats a very bad way of downshifting.
Why even revmatch at all? In normal driving you should be doing direct downshifts under 2k. That's what synchros are for, we're not driving semi's or on a road course on the way to work.
12-03-2007, 07:15 PM
#208
Senior Member
Not to start problems but by buddy says its horrible to do that and its not really double clutching. This is his example for his version of double clutching.
1. Let off gas
2. Pull car out of gear into neutral
3. Push clutch in
4. Shift into gear
5. Release the clutch and apply the gas at the same time.
Any comments on this?
later
1. Let off gas
2. Pull car out of gear into neutral
3. Push clutch in
4. Shift into gear
5. Release the clutch and apply the gas at the same time.
Any comments on this?
later
and slap him upside the head please.
12-03-2007, 07:16 PM
#209
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Double clutching is a technique used most commonly on big rigs and manual transmissions without syncros. When you double clutch, you allow the transmission speed to sync up to the engine speed, which is what syncromesh gears do in most stick passenger vehicles.
Here's the process:
Situation - in 4th at 45 MPH at 2200 RPMs, downshifting to 2nd
1. Clutch in and hold
2. Shift into neutral
3. Clutch out
4. Rev to roughly 4400 RPMs
5. Clutch in
6. Shift into 2nd
7. Clutch out
Double clutching can also be used for upshifting, and therefore may not require the rev-match in step 4 if completed in a timely manner.
Here's the process:
Situation - in 4th at 45 MPH at 2200 RPMs, downshifting to 2nd
1. Clutch in and hold
2. Shift into neutral
3. Clutch out
4. Rev to roughly 4400 RPMs
5. Clutch in
6. Shift into 2nd
7. Clutch out
Double clutching can also be used for upshifting, and therefore may not require the rev-match in step 4 if completed in a timely manner.
12-03-2007, 07:30 PM
#210
with a modern car double clutching is not needed, like stated. unless you're really, really into fast and the furious. in which case double clutching is the **** yo
12-03-2007, 07:30 PM
#211
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12-03-2007, 07:45 PM
#212
12-03-2007, 09:33 PM
#213
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12-03-2007, 09:44 PM
#214
I know for sure its not me making a mistake, not that i dont because i have miss-shifted and will miss-shift again but its every moter fffen time i shift and the rpm's are over 3.5 and it doesnt matter if its up shifting to 2nd or downshifting to 2nd it grinds like hell and my foot has the clutch down as far and as hard as i can, so yea syncros it proly is my exhaust/car is stinking like ass so along with syncros they will be looking at my cat aswell. Cross your fingers that they will do it under warrantee!
12-03-2007, 09:47 PM
#215
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12-03-2007, 09:49 PM
#216
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hnmmm.... "to me" double clutching would be in a racing situation where you
upshift
continue to accelerate a little
leave the gas floored
slam in the clutch pedal and quickly release it.
that way you get the revs up an drop it in. I'm not saying i would personally do this, but thats what i do when i play those driving simulators lol
upshift
continue to accelerate a little
leave the gas floored
slam in the clutch pedal and quickly release it.
that way you get the revs up an drop it in. I'm not saying i would personally do this, but thats what i do when i play those driving simulators lol
12-03-2007, 10:41 PM
#218
hnmmm.... "to me" double clutching would be in a racing situation where you
upshift
continue to accelerate a little
leave the gas floored
slam in the clutch pedal and quickly release it.
that way you get the revs up an drop it in. I'm not saying i would personally do this, but thats what i do when i play those driving simulators lol
upshift
continue to accelerate a little
leave the gas floored
slam in the clutch pedal and quickly release it.
that way you get the revs up an drop it in. I'm not saying i would personally do this, but thats what i do when i play those driving simulators lol
12-03-2007, 10:56 PM
#220
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12-03-2007, 11:00 PM
#221
Senior Member
yeah that line in F&F sucked alot of people in.
"granny shiftin not double clutchin like you should"
haha, you remember that kid a while back who was arguing that we were all stupid, and that all his racer buddies know whats up, and that double clutching is just shifting fast with the hammer down?
he was totally convinced, and callin everyone a bunch of idiots for disagreeing
hehe funny stuff
"granny shiftin not double clutchin like you should"
haha, you remember that kid a while back who was arguing that we were all stupid, and that all his racer buddies know whats up, and that double clutching is just shifting fast with the hammer down?
he was totally convinced, and callin everyone a bunch of idiots for disagreeing
hehe funny stuff
12-03-2007, 11:16 PM
#222
12-04-2007, 03:33 PM
#223
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i know what double clutching is. Thats why i said "in a racing situation."
I know what "double clutching" is supposed to be and ive driven big rigs before. and to tell you the truth i didn't even use the clutch at all
I know what "double clutching" is supposed to be and ive driven big rigs before. and to tell you the truth i didn't even use the clutch at all
Last edited by exiged; 12-04-2007 at 03:33 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
12-04-2007, 03:52 PM
#225
Senior Member
what you described isnt double clutching.