Saturn L200 Transmission in a COBALT???
02-28-2009, 12:07 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 10-06-05
Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Posts: 10,944
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Saturn L200 Transmission in a COBALT???
Ok, this is continued from my build thread. I had came across a saturn L200 trans for only 250 bucks. I know the final drive is swappable, but i was contemplating swapping the entire transmission. Once I got up to the salvage yard to take a look at it, I noticed a major difference in the linkages.
I think at this point, I think the trans will bolt up and the axles will work and all. I'll just have to fab up some custom linkage brackets. I'm not sure if I want to tackle this now. Hopefully john powell (qwikredline) can add some advice.
differences, linkages, location of sensors. Cobalt linkages are on the transmission case itself, L200 linkages are really weird and bulky and located on the bellhousing.
COBALT SS/SC F35 TRANSMISSION
SATURN L200 F35 TRANSMISSION
(notice the linkages on the bellhousing, not the actual transmission case)
damn, waste of a thread I guess.
I think at this point, I think the trans will bolt up and the axles will work and all. I'll just have to fab up some custom linkage brackets. I'm not sure if I want to tackle this now. Hopefully john powell (qwikredline) can add some advice.
differences, linkages, location of sensors. Cobalt linkages are on the transmission case itself, L200 linkages are really weird and bulky and located on the bellhousing.
COBALT SS/SC F35 TRANSMISSION
SATURN L200 F35 TRANSMISSION
(notice the linkages on the bellhousing, not the actual transmission case)
damn, waste of a thread I guess.
Last edited by ralliartist; 02-28-2009 at 12:07 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
02-28-2009, 12:33 AM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 10-06-05
Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Posts: 10,944
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
basically, if I want to do this, I'm going to have to swap in the whole L200 trans and custom make some linkage brackets on the trans. I'm not sure if I want to do that or not.
02-28-2009, 12:53 AM
#4
Haz l33t wheelz.
you can't swap the linkage brackets?
you cv boot has a leak...
pull it apart and swap all the gears. if the linkages are that different, woults the forks be as well? not sure, just thinking.
you cv boot has a leak...
pull it apart and swap all the gears. if the linkages are that different, woults the forks be as well? not sure, just thinking.
Last edited by ls1fbody; 02-28-2009 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
02-28-2009, 01:02 AM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 10-06-05
Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Posts: 10,944
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
No leak, it's oil that dripped down on it.
No, the cobalt linkages are on the t-case, the l200 linkages are on the bellhousing. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
You got a good question on the forks, but apparently it all works because john powell himself told me the L200 was where you get the 4.45 final drive to do the swap.
Everyone that has done the swap has just swapped over the final drive. While that sounds easy, it's not. Easy would be just swapping the trans. But like I said, custom linkage brackets will have to be made.
No, the cobalt linkages are on the t-case, the l200 linkages are on the bellhousing. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
You got a good question on the forks, but apparently it all works because john powell himself told me the L200 was where you get the 4.45 final drive to do the swap.
Everyone that has done the swap has just swapped over the final drive. While that sounds easy, it's not. Easy would be just swapping the trans. But like I said, custom linkage brackets will have to be made.
02-28-2009, 01:02 AM
#6
one big issue right off the bat is there is no vehicle speed sensor in the case. you may be able to get around that by using an 04 ion redline intermediate shaft with the sensor on it, however im not sure itll work correctly. the linkages look like they are gonna be a pain to make work. looks like it will physically bolt into the car though, but making everything work will be tough.
i think the best bet is to build that tranny into the cobalt case. the linkage and shift rails will be different, however im sure the shift sleeves will be the same so the cobalt rails and forks should work. if you just wanted to swap the 4.45 ratio in you would need to swap the ring gear and counter shaft, as the pinion gear will be part of the counter shaft.
i think the best bet is to build that tranny into the cobalt case. the linkage and shift rails will be different, however im sure the shift sleeves will be the same so the cobalt rails and forks should work. if you just wanted to swap the 4.45 ratio in you would need to swap the ring gear and counter shaft, as the pinion gear will be part of the counter shaft.
02-28-2009, 01:04 AM
#7
Haz l33t wheelz.
^what he said. I thought that right after i posted. If you have the time, wouldn't it be better to swap the guts? not sure if custom linkages would work.
02-28-2009, 01:17 AM
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 10-06-05
Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Posts: 10,944
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Nope, I just went up there and looked at it today. It was only like a 40 min drive. I was standing there taking pics and I was just itching to get it. But something kept telling me no. Oh yea, it was those hideous linkages.
me too. I guess that's why john powell and the gm time attack cobalt did a gear swap and not a trans swap huh?
me too. I guess that's why john powell and the gm time attack cobalt did a gear swap and not a trans swap huh?
Last edited by ralliartist; 02-28-2009 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
02-28-2009, 01:33 AM
#12
Nope, I just went up there and looked at it today. It was only like a 40 min drive. I was standing there taking pics and I was just itching to get it. But something kept telling me no. Oh yea, it was those hideous linkages.
me too. I guess that's why john powell and the gm time attack cobalt did a gear swap and not a trans swap huh?
me too. I guess that's why john powell and the gm time attack cobalt did a gear swap and not a trans swap huh?
02-28-2009, 01:30 PM
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 10-06-05
Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Posts: 10,944
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Great NEWS!!!!
Thanks SHAB!!!
Thank god for Google. LOL. Below is pics of an '04 redline intermediate "jack" shaft. Notice the speed sensor on it. So from what I've gathered, this and a custom linkage bracket is all that should be needed to peform the L200 trans swap.
WonOnTour has informed me that the linkages should be fine, and a recalibration in HPtuners would be needed since the teeth on the the shaft are different count than the teeth in the cobalt transmission, for the speed sensors.
Um, the speedsensor on the '04 RL is on the jackshaft, the L200 didn't have a jackshaft. People have had no problems converting back and forth between the type speed sensor placements in the past. It's a pretty simple issue to resolve.
The L200 uses two axles of different length. The RL and Cobalt SS use two of the exact same axle, with the center shaft helping to reduce torque steer. On the '04 RL, the vehicle speed sensor runs off the jackshaft, not from anywhere inside the actual transmission. My understanding is that all three vehicle speed sensors are compatable, but you have to remove the sensor you not using and plug the hole it was in. However, I haven't done any swaps on the Cobalt SS, so I'm not 100% on the easiest way to do this. I had think it would be easiest to get a RL jackshaft with sensor to plug into if you're having issues with the factory location.
Thank god for Google. LOL. Below is pics of an '04 redline intermediate "jack" shaft. Notice the speed sensor on it. So from what I've gathered, this and a custom linkage bracket is all that should be needed to peform the L200 trans swap.
WonOnTour has informed me that the linkages should be fine, and a recalibration in HPtuners would be needed since the teeth on the the shaft are different count than the teeth in the cobalt transmission, for the speed sensors.
Last edited by ralliartist; 02-28-2009 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
02-28-2009, 01:51 PM
#19
do you happen to know what the gear ratios 1st through 5th are??? id like to run a comparison of the total package between the l200 and lsj tranny. seems like first gear is gonna be even more pointless now and the motor will be screaming on the freeway.
02-28-2009, 01:52 PM
#20
02-28-2009, 02:21 PM
#21
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 10-06-05
Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Posts: 10,944
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I really don't think this is the kind of swap that just anyone should be doing. I use slicks and will be reving to 8k rpms.
if I use this transmission with my slicks, 1st gear will be winded out to 8k rpms which is 39mph, 2nd I'll probably shift at 7500 which is 70mph, 3rd to 7500 which is 105mph, and hopefully cross the 1/4 at somewhere between 110-115mph which is 5900-6200rpms. I might take 3rd further though depending on what the car is trapping and such.
02-28-2009, 03:56 PM
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: 10-06-05
Location: Seneca, South Carolina
Posts: 10,944
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I think.
First I got to see if I can get a '04 redline intermediate shaft, then I'll go buy the trans if I can.
02-28-2009, 04:54 PM
#24
Senior Member
lol, true that, but I'm going to do it anyways. I'm going to keep my transmission around in hopes that I can swap it back in one day when I got the money to do the gear swap. But for now, el cheapo ralliartist is going to use the L200 transmission.
I think.
First I got to see if I can get a '04 redline intermediate shaft, then I'll go buy the trans if I can.
I think.
First I got to see if I can get a '04 redline intermediate shaft, then I'll go buy the trans if I can.
02-28-2009, 11:58 PM
#25
Premium Member
hey i can get you an intermediate shaft BUT IT WONT WORK. You would need a pcm for a Cobalt to work with an external vss signal. YOu cant use an Ion pcm as it works for a different back end wiring architecture. You could get a Koni 05 Cobalt pcm as they used external vss for 05 and somein 06, but i doubt any race teams will sell you one...so basically, save your money. El cheapo Ralliartist has an no bueno idea....
The input to the PCM is actually identical in this respect (connector C3 terminals 44 and 45) all that's really different is the reluctor tooth count (30 on the Redline axle reluctor vs. 89 teeth on the Cobalt ring gear) and therefore the divide ratio for the higher frequency must be accounted for in ECM's MPH calculation used for the speedometer and other networked speed dependant systems. The divide ratio setting can be altered easy enough in software through something like HPTuner in the speedometer section. I've swapped Cobalt/Redline/Saab setups in this manner without issue.
The larger problem in this particular swap is the shifter linkage. The non-weighted shift arm used in the L-series used a diffrent mechanism and has different geometry than the weighted arm.So this isn't really a swap for the meek of heart as you'll probably need to swap the shift shafts which isn't something you cant really do without pulling it apart. Not impossible though.
The ones we did in 2003-04 were brand new Redline units and we had all the Saab F35 tools (and the 16 hour overhaul training course taught by Sven himself)
Technically all we did was take the Redline transmissions apart, press apart the output shafts and install the 20-tooth shaft (the 4.05:1 output shaft has 22 teeth) and added the quaiffes using the original ring gear. The final drive ring gear is IDENTICAL between the 4.05 and 4.45 units and since our transmissions had 0 miles there was no worry of generating "wear pattern" gear noises and such. So if you're determined to go to 4.45 it might be easier to just get someone with the tools (and knows what they're doing) to disassemble and them both and swap the shift shafts OR keep your trans and swap the output shaft assemblies OR just buy and install the 20 tooth shaft into your trans (with some minor risk of gear noise with a "mixed" gearset with either solution)
For drag racing this change actually makes a lot of sense (providing you have the traction) as besides the additional TQ , you shift sooner and dont end up with that dreaded last shift "in the traps". I have the speed charts for the stock tires somewhere, if I can find it I'll post them. But of course if you're building a serious Cobalt for drag racing you'll want to go with a modified 4T65E or something like an Xtrac.
HTH
WopOnTour