12andy

Hey all,

Finally got my hands on an 09 TC and am stoked as ever. First car, first-time experience learning stick... what a learning curve. Had it for about a week now, and am starting to get the hang of it.

My real issue however is getting going from a red light; I know I probably need to work on my launches still (it's sorta smooth, but jerks a bit as soon as the flywheel connects; attempting various gas input combinations still), but I find 2nd gear just a tad too tall. A search here revealed that one should wait a bit until the RPMs drop for a smooth shift to 2nd - however, by the time the RPMs have dropped enough, vans/ SUVs/ beaters are right on my ass. As soon as 2nd is engaged, bye bye traffic.

Should I be doing something else? Any input would be appreciated.

Shibito

I hold my rpms just under 1500 and smoothly let out the clutch while gassing a tad bit more, I usually shift about 3k into 2nd and then use 2nd to get up to the speed limit. No real need to let the rpms drop a lot, just go

GTPUSER

you gotta granny it, the sc's are the same way too, kind of a crappy transition to 2nd

Permafried-

Nice to see you searched first, that's a refresher here .

In all honesty, your best bet is to ignore the jerking and definitely avoid slipping the clutch. My 1/2 shift has gotten progressively better (this tranny is particularly tough due to the gap in gearing) and I'm only a tad slower on it than I am through all the other gears (mainly so the clutch doesn't "slap") and somtimes it jerks sometimes it doesn't. Like you when I first bought the car I was trying to perfect it and realised it's just something that will come with time...try not to think about it too much chances are you'll do worse .

12andy

Permafried: Oh trust me man, prior to/ just after buying the car, I was all over this forum like it's nobody's business. Plenty of great - and not so great - stuff on here.

Shibito: Y'know, holding the RPMs a bit seemed to help smooth out the launches. What I typically did before was simultaneously let off the clutch while applying just a bit of gas. It worked and all, but was still a bit too shakey for my liking. I'll definitely work on this some more.

Now I've been reading conflicting opinions regarding whether or not one should apply some gas just before letting off of the clutch. I find that this really smoothens out upshifts, but is said to wear out the clutch even more. If one were not to do this, then surely a jerky engagement is detrimental to the drivetrain as well?

DaBuzzard

1-2 gap on the 2.4's sucks as well, 1st is too damn short imho.

I find that getting the revs up a bit (4k or so) before shifting to 2nd helps quite a bit in smoothing out the 1-2 shift, shifting too soon (say 2500) just drops the motor right out of the powerband in second and bogs it a bit.
Getting off the line....maybe 1000 / 1100 on the tach for me, fully off the clutch in no time at all and it's pretty smooth. Mind you, I have been driving manual trans cars and trucks (everything from a 3 in the tree to a 5 and 4) for 30+ years, ymmv.

Rev matching is your friend, even on upshifts. Takes a lot of practice but once you get the timing down, the only reason anyone knows you shifted is because the tach reads lower Ideally you want to be off the clutch at the point where the rpms don't even twitch when the clutch engages.

Practice makes perfect

06SS ALL DAY

my second is tall also... i shift at 2800-3k (easy on the gas), thats the best way i know of and best way to save the clutch. (48k on stock clutch and staged...) no slippage what so ever

06SS ALL DAY

my second is tall also... i shift at 2800-3k (easy on the gas), thats the best way i know of and best way to save the clutch. (48k on stock clutch and staged...) no slippage what so ever

Blue_Balt

iTrader: (1)

Same on the 2.2's cause it's the same tranny. I also find that shifting at a higher rpm from 1-2(Around 3.5-4 K RPM) helps out a lot.

Sharkey

iTrader: (1)

the 2.2/2.4 is nowere near the same gap between gears as an ss/sc or ss/tc. i drive my ss/sc up to around 2800 then shift to 2nd.

i drive a lot of different vehicles in my line of work (im a transmission tech) from small economy cars, to performance cars, to diesel trucks, and i have to say the cobalt ss/sc has to be one of the most finickey to drive. first, it deffinitly has the performance clutch feel, making it hard for a smooth engagment, and the gear split 1-2 has to be one of the worst ive encountered in all the manuals ive driven, its completly unmatched to the engine bolted to it. this makes the car tough to drive and i deffinitly dont recommend learning to drive stick on one, but if you are, dont get discouraged if you cant drive it smooth, most of the time i cant drive mine very smoothly.

one thing i do have to say, the car drives a lot smoother when you beat on it.

Permafried-

You should always apply gas before releasing the clutch to rev match the engine to the transmission. Where the problem comes in is how smoothly and quickly you let the clutch out. Here's a good rule of thumb but it DOESN'T mean you have to bang the clutch in and out like a lunatic

When upshifting you should hear and instant pitch/tone change when going from one gear to the next. If you're hearing the revs come up then down over a period of time (even if it's 1 or 2 seconds) then you are slipping the clutch which is bad and causes pre-mature wear. Hence why applying gas before releasing the clutch isn't damaging, in fact matching the revolutions is recommended (and makes for less jerking) it's HOW you let the clutch out that impacts wear and tear on the plate.

Hope that helps.

12andy

DaBuzzard: I've been keeping an eye on my tach upon clutch engagement and notice that the needle gets bumped up by about 500RPM at the most. Trying to minimize that now, and I think I'm getting there (averaging around 300RPMs now). As for launching, getting the RPMs to around 1000/ 1100 takes a bit more gas than I've been doing this entire time I find; once there however, the overall process is indeed much smoother.

Sharkey: As much as I don't wanna hear that the SC (alas, the TC as well?) is hard to drive smoothly, it also gives me some reassurance during this learning process - tough love, eh?

Permafried: I've been trying to apply some gas, prior to releasing the clutch, but I'm still getting that 300rpm gap or so. I know it's probably a timing issue on my part, or that I haven't been applying enough gas to match the revs - more than likely the latter, though. I tend to time my shifts my pressing the clutch down and preload the shifter until it goes into the next gear with minimal effort.

Much appreciated for the input thus far though, guys. Starting to actually enjoy driving the beast now.

Permafried-

It seems like timing but if you watch the RPM range drop between 1st and 2nd compared to 2nd/3rd, 3rd/4th you'll notice why you're coming out 300-400rpm lower than expected. It's the gearing of the car, I still do it to this day when I'm not paying attention and get a nice slap from the flywheel and clutch plate if I pull a real stupid....it's a tough clutch/tranny to get used to but you'll adjust...just try not to think about it too much .

Blue_Balt

iTrader: (1)

F23 gap between 1st and 2nd= 1.56.
F35 gap between 1st and 2nd= 1.62.

Don't know about that. 1st and 2nd gear ratio gaps are pretty close for both gearboxes. It does however start to spread out between the 2 once you start going from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th.

12andy

Just an update:

My 1-2 has gotten considerably better over the past couple of days. What I found is that if I rely on the ease of shifter movement to dictate my timing, I tend to come out a little short, RPM-wise. Shifting at 3k and letting it drop to around 1.5k does the job.

Same goes for 2-3; shift at 3k, then let it drop to around 2k. During this process however, I find that I have to exert a bit more effort in order to overcome the shifter resistance and make sure the shift is completed on-time. I guess this is what Sharky meant when he referred to "beating" the tranny for smoother runs. My only concern is the notchy feeling when changing gears in this fashion - it's like a tradeoff, having to choose between a smooth drive or smooth stick movement. It'd be nice to have both!

3-4 is smooth as butter, with 4-5 being similar to 2-3 (damn those stubborn gears, lol).

Rissa

My car loves a nice slow smooth 1-2 shift, it hates when it's too fast, every other one is fine though.

Blue_Balt

iTrader: (1)

The other gears are sapced way closer together than 1-2. That's why it feels smoother. What he referred to beating on it driving the car itself a bit hard. When you shift you want to be on the clutch for the least time possible. You know you're doing it right when you release the clutch quickly(this doesn't mean to dump it) and the car doesn't buck at all.

Yeah, that has a lot to do with the fact that you have all your torque way down low.

DaBuzzard

It's not just the gap from 1st to 2nd, it's the 1st gear ratios themselves.

The f23 has a 3.58:1 1st and a 2.02:1 2nd with a 3.94:1 final drive so:
- 14.10:1 overall in 1st, 7.96:1 in 2nd, about a 44% drop from 1st to 2nd.

The f35 has a 3.38:1 1st and a 1.76:1 2nd with a 3.82:1 final drive so:
- 12.91:1 overall in first, 6.72:1 in 2nd, about a 48% drop from 1st to 2nd.

Not a huge difference but still a bit more drop on the sc / tc cars - the taller overall gearing on the f35 is the real killer.

When launching (even normal starts) it makes it tough to get that sweet spot between lugging / stalling and smoking the skins / getting into wheelhop
When going from 1 to 2, it makes it easy to drop the motor out of the powerband and bog it out if you don't wind it up a bit.

Oh well, at least we don't have the retardedly high 5th gears like the early 5 speeds had.
Nothing like shifting from 4 to 5 with 3500 on the tach and ending up at 1100

Blue_Balt

iTrader: (1)

Oh I know, I was just keeping it a bit simple. I agree with ya man.

That's why I shift at 3500 going from 1st to 2nd cause it keep you in the sweet spot(For everyday driving at least.).

12andy

Ah. gotcha.

DaBuzzard

Wonder how hard it would be to take the final drive gear out of an HHR f23 (or f35 for you tc/sc peeps)?

4.17:1 ratio (4.05:1 for f35) would sure boost the acceleration but would suck down a bit more fuel

Guessing it would fit but where is the speed sensor on these cars? Output side of the transaxle? Hmmmmm......