Need some advice/opinions :)
04-25-2005 | 12:39 PM
#26
Senior Member
Joined: 07-06-04
Posts: 2,082
Likes: 2
From: Spaceball 1 or better known as CT
Originally Posted by Vooduguru
Dude, that is the lamest reason to pick or not pick a car. Clearly you don't know the illustrious history of the neon in many a racing circuit that the J body NEVER had. Now with the new Cobalt, maybe that will change, but keep in mind DCx has a 10 year head start. I've owned neons for 5 years now and I was a die hard Ford guy, when my wife told me that she wanted a neon I was like HELL NO!!! 
There's NO way we're getting that POS!
Well after fighting about it for 4 months I gave in and we bought one. But only after driving EVERY damn compact in the market, TWICE. We drove the Ford Escort, the Focus, the Cavalier, the Civic, the Jetta, the SC2, the Daewoo compact, the Sunfire, EVERY DAMN compact new then the same cars used with at least 10,000 miles on them. The NEON (which I was expecting to be dead last) was the ONLY car to feel so close to the way it felt when it was new, that to me was the marque of a quality build. It completely turned my opinions on Dodge on it's ear. The neons that I drove had the exact same steering feel as when they were new, the same tightness, the same responsiveness, shifter felt the same after 10-20k miles etc. Then to interior, yea it had a plasticky interior, but so did every other car we drove, the Cavalier had it worse, the Daewoo was only worse than the others combined.
I loved how forgiving the Neon was in corners and how well the car did just in stock trim on on ramps (this was in late 99, still driving the current model year) The Cavalier felt like a sled with that solid rear axle, the Focus felt similar IN the corner, but the steering lacked feedback, I mean hell the Ford Ranger I had at the time felt better in the steering at 129k miles than the brand new Focus.
So after putting my wife through hell at the dealerships, driving the salesmen crazy driving one car after another, we picked up a used 98 DOHC expresso 4 dr with a 5spd and 21k miles for $8,200. (this was early 2000) Under slight protest at the wife being "right" and her slight tinge of gloating, I was bound and determined to break the neon and I flogged on it mercilessly. The first thing I did to it was put amsoil in it and some Lucas into the trans. Then the beatings began. Over the course of 2 years I put more than 90k miles on it in addition to the 20k or so that was already on it. Autocross events, drag racing at the track and at the illegals, WOT shifts at 7,000 rpm, topping out the speed in 4th gear at 130. Day in day out, every little mod I did on the car to try to break it, didn't work.
I ended up respecting the car for it's ability to take my beatings all day long and come home, and start right up again ready for another day of ritualistic abuse. My wife was so upset that I basically took over the car, she made me get her another one. This one was an R/T loaded, sunroof, power everything and the ONLY problem I had with that car (my wife and I put another 40-50k miles on it in a year) was the sunroof had endless problems with it opening. It would close, but wouldn't open all the way. I sold both neons to get the SRT-4, and ended up buying my wife a Grand Cherokee limited.
So if anyone wonders why I have such deep rooted respect for the neon, it's because like you, I hated the car and didn't know about the history of the car at all. Only through violent beatings did I realize that the car is a very well built car. Easy to get, easy/cheap to mod, easy/cheap to upgrade (I installed all new shocks with only an air gun and a spring compressor, and didn't have to do an alignment after the install) Easy/cheap to get upgraded parts (like rear disc brakes) So with all that I am what you may call a convert.
There's NO way we're getting that POS! Well after fighting about it for 4 months I gave in and we bought one. But only after driving EVERY damn compact in the market, TWICE. We drove the Ford Escort, the Focus, the Cavalier, the Civic, the Jetta, the SC2, the Daewoo compact, the Sunfire, EVERY DAMN compact new then the same cars used with at least 10,000 miles on them. The NEON (which I was expecting to be dead last) was the ONLY car to feel so close to the way it felt when it was new, that to me was the marque of a quality build. It completely turned my opinions on Dodge on it's ear. The neons that I drove had the exact same steering feel as when they were new, the same tightness, the same responsiveness, shifter felt the same after 10-20k miles etc. Then to interior, yea it had a plasticky interior, but so did every other car we drove, the Cavalier had it worse, the Daewoo was only worse than the others combined.
I loved how forgiving the Neon was in corners and how well the car did just in stock trim on on ramps (this was in late 99, still driving the current model year) The Cavalier felt like a sled with that solid rear axle, the Focus felt similar IN the corner, but the steering lacked feedback, I mean hell the Ford Ranger I had at the time felt better in the steering at 129k miles than the brand new Focus.
So after putting my wife through hell at the dealerships, driving the salesmen crazy driving one car after another, we picked up a used 98 DOHC expresso 4 dr with a 5spd and 21k miles for $8,200. (this was early 2000) Under slight protest at the wife being "right" and her slight tinge of gloating, I was bound and determined to break the neon and I flogged on it mercilessly. The first thing I did to it was put amsoil in it and some Lucas into the trans. Then the beatings began. Over the course of 2 years I put more than 90k miles on it in addition to the 20k or so that was already on it. Autocross events, drag racing at the track and at the illegals, WOT shifts at 7,000 rpm, topping out the speed in 4th gear at 130. Day in day out, every little mod I did on the car to try to break it, didn't work.
I ended up respecting the car for it's ability to take my beatings all day long and come home, and start right up again ready for another day of ritualistic abuse. My wife was so upset that I basically took over the car, she made me get her another one. This one was an R/T loaded, sunroof, power everything and the ONLY problem I had with that car (my wife and I put another 40-50k miles on it in a year) was the sunroof had endless problems with it opening. It would close, but wouldn't open all the way. I sold both neons to get the SRT-4, and ended up buying my wife a Grand Cherokee limited.
So if anyone wonders why I have such deep rooted respect for the neon, it's because like you, I hated the car and didn't know about the history of the car at all. Only through violent beatings did I realize that the car is a very well built car. Easy to get, easy/cheap to mod, easy/cheap to upgrade (I installed all new shocks with only an air gun and a spring compressor, and didn't have to do an alignment after the install) Easy/cheap to get upgraded parts (like rear disc brakes) So with all that I am what you may call a convert.
Dont like the stock gauges bam get the mopar upgraded ones...
gm......anybody hear crickets.....
factory designed parts by the factory!
Anyone here seen a freakin GM engineer come on and help or give support, nope....
go to the srt-forums and look up the user Dodgetweaker....who is it? Ethan, the SRT Engineer!
Man talk about nice!
Dont like the seats....then get the mopar katzkin leather option where you can design the seats then get them installed at the dealer and covered under the 3yr/36k bumper to bumper....crickets anyone.....
04-25-2005 | 07:53 PM
#27
Banned
Joined: 12-14-04
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
nice read, and dont forget the SRT has MOPAR support, dont like the stock shifter, get a mopar short shifter, bam done!
Dont like the stock gauges bam get the mopar upgraded ones...
gm......anybody hear crickets.....
factory designed parts by the factory!
Anyone here seen a freakin GM engineer come on and help or give support, nope....
go to the srt-forums and look up the user Dodgetweaker....who is it? Ethan, the SRT Engineer!
Man talk about nice!
Dont like the seats....then get the mopar katzkin leather option where you can design the seats then get them installed at the dealer and covered under the 3yr/36k bumper to bumper....crickets anyone..... 
Dont like the stock gauges bam get the mopar upgraded ones...
gm......anybody hear crickets.....
factory designed parts by the factory!
Anyone here seen a freakin GM engineer come on and help or give support, nope....
go to the srt-forums and look up the user Dodgetweaker....who is it? Ethan, the SRT Engineer!
Man talk about nice!
Dont like the seats....then get the mopar katzkin leather option where you can design the seats then get them installed at the dealer and covered under the 3yr/36k bumper to bumper....crickets anyone.....
The point is that the Cobalt comes with everything you mentioned standard, while you have to pay extra to upgrade the SRT-4 later on, after purchasing it. That means that you have to put out hundreds or thousands more after paying $22K for the car in the first place, and thats by no means a bargain.
seems as if you're stating opinion. Thank you, next plz.
Again, stating opinion. My wife is 6 foot tall and mostly legs. She has plenty of room for her to sit comfortably AND I can sit behind her (I'm 5'8") in the back seat comfortably with no problems whatsoever. Now I will admit that the "racing seats" are uncomfortable for those of the pudgy persuasion so maybe you're a bit of a bigger fella?
Again talking out your butt, if plastic is HARD and SOLID then it's MORE likely to crack and fall apart because it can't flex and expand and contract as easily as the "rubberized" plastic on other cars.
Modern dashes that are made of "hard" plasitc are not even comparable to the plastic dashes from years ago. Quality and plastic technology have come such a long way that its no longer necessary to have a "padded dash" to make people think its a quality vehicle. You can knock on the Cobalt's dash as hard as you like, the sound that you will hear is a deep thud, because its not hollow underneath. The plastics are formed using precise equipment, to ensure high strength and uniform texture, and they are solid as a rock - so theres no chinsy pieces to crack, snap off, rattle, or squeak against one another.
The Cobalt SS/SC that was at the auto show I went to the car had a combination of a very glossy painted finish with some center areas being a low gloss finish. Paint can deteriorate in the envrionment of an automotive interior, so I really don't think that painted has an advantage over the other type of interior finishes in other brands. I don't know about you but I've never had a problem finding gears in a simple H shift configuration car regardless of make, model.
As for the "painted" silver center stack, in case you haven't noticed, the SRT-4 has a similar panel around the center stack, also in silver - not sure if either of them are painted. Not sure how much experience you have with different brands/models of cars, but I can tell you from first hand experiences that some gear shifters are much better and more user friendly than others. Both the Cobalt's and SRT-4's shifters were very nice, relatively quick and precise throws, and all the gears were right where they should be.
However, not all cars are so well designed - I sat in a few cars at the auto show that were just plain terrible. One was a Suzuki, the "H" pattern was really offset to the right (Japan?) and the cogs were ridiculously close to each other. Other cars had shift gates that didn't line up perfectly, so shifting from 1-2 or 3-4 was really awkward, and it would be easy to miss a shift just because of the poor design.
The interior on the Cobalt is going to collect dust just as easy as any other car. Regardless of brand. The only way that statement would EVER hold any water would be that the interior of the neon excretes some sort of sticky "sweat" to attract more dust then any other car. You are clearly new to the car market. I have over 20 years under my belt there son. Trust me, the Cobalt interior materials will collect dust just as easy as a BMW or a Yugo.
You know I'm looking at this picture and the CD player is in plain view. Now if you're referring to the 6 disc changer, why would you be changing CD's in a multi disc changer WHILE driving? I mean is it the fault of the manufacturers fault that it's not convenient to change all 6 discs while eating, talking on the phone, smoking a cigarette, and driving and shifting all at the same time, damn that car MUST BE a POS.
people are going to change CD's while driving whether they should or not, and its much easier to do so when the unit is within plain view and facing the driver. Even when at a stoplight, one would have to bend their head down by the shift knob just to insert or take out a CD from the CD changer 
Oh and FYI the SRT-4 and the PL body (2nd gen) are only in their 3rd model year of production, not 6th. (The PL was introduced as a 2000 m/y, then the SRT came out 3 years later)
Heres pics to prove it:
2000 Dodge Neon interior
2003 Neon SRT-4 interior
No major changes at all.
And just for comparison, heres the Cobalt's interior:
04-25-2005 | 08:42 PM
#28
Member
Joined: 04-04-05
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: SLC
No you are talking "out your butt". The whole "hard plastic cracks" thing is a myth created in the 80's, but it doesn't apply anymore
1920-1949 US Automobiles in the Big 3 dashboards were overwhelmingly steel. This offered a long lasting high quality fit and finished and didn't deviate from it's shape for years and years.
1950-1978 (give or take) dashboards were foam, covered with a wide variety of vinyls covering the outside areas of the foam. This accomplished the more stringent safetly requirements of the USDOT to allow the dashboards to compress if a body/head were to slam into it.
1979-1986 (give or take) High density foam introduced recently, became a new form of foam that could be placed underneath a hard plastic that could satisfy the compression during an impact but not have the cracking associated with the vinyl covered dashes from before, however, the shrinking of that foam still caused cracking because the foam was essentially a cellular skeletal structure holding the dash in place.
1988-Current Most US cars are using less and less foam as their cellular skeletal structures
lowering production costs, and increasing long term durability for the dashboards. Varying degrees of stiffness and thickness would be just as numerous as brands of vehicles that are on the market. Plastic as a core material grew in popularity on an unprecedented scale because of it's ease and flexibility to design new roomier interiors (this is brand wide)
My 2000 Cavalier has one, and let me tell you from personaly experience that it is crap. Complete garbage. Its squeaks and cracks just like an old hard plastic dash, not to mention it looks like **** and is actually starting to crack apart in places.
Hard, and rattly.
I'll also point out that my 98 Neon with 124k or so miles on it, had NO ZERO NONE of any rattles and squeaks in the interior. I thought I had one once, then I realized my kids threw some pennies down a vent so the speakers would cause them to rattle. The funny thing is that you're touting the "long term" durability when no such thing exists for the Cobalt yet.
Get back to me in a couple of years ok?
04-25-2005 | 09:34 PM
#29
Senior Member
Joined: 07-06-04
Posts: 2,082
Likes: 2
From: Spaceball 1 or better known as CT
Originally Posted by wesmanw02
Well thats all well and good that you can upgrade everything after, you purchase the car, but thats true with any car. Going by your theory, a stripped Kia Rio is a great value because you can "upgrade everything" later The point is that the Cobalt comes with everything you mentioned standard, while you have to pay extra to upgrade the SRT-4 later on, after purchasing it. That means that you have to put out hundreds or thousands more after paying $22K for the car in the first place, and thats by no means a bargain.
The point is that the Cobalt comes with everything you mentioned standard, while you have to pay extra to upgrade the SRT-4 later on, after purchasing it. That means that you have to put out hundreds or thousands more after paying $22K for the car in the first place, and thats by no means a bargain.Well by your own admission both the SS and srt shifters are good, I agree, I drove a SS for 1/2 an hr just the other day. BUT there is a lot of room for improvement! The shifter feels vague, and the throws are not as short as I would like. B+M is already coming out with a short shifter for the SS and let me tell you these are a PITA to install! I did one on a Sunfire GT and they are almost the same shift mechanisim. The mopar shifter takes like 20 mins, take out the 4 bolts unhook the cables and wala!
You dont HAVE to upgrade anything if you dont want to! My point was the factory support is there and ready if you WANT TO
BTW last time I checked if you want a LSD on the SS you have to pony up $1500 which is std on the SRT, dont mince crap.....it still tastes like CRAP!
04-25-2005 | 10:28 PM
#30
New Member
Joined: 04-17-05
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
BTW last time I checked if you want a LSD on the SS you have to pony up $1500 which is std on the SRT, dont mince crap.....it still tastes like CRAP!
Now, honestly, I'd rather have the LSD, but many people don't care. However I also want leather and mp3 and I can't even get those an option with the SRT-4.
I still like both cars, except for the interior on one... SRT-4 does have a better gauge cluster. Much more useful.
04-25-2005 | 10:31 PM
#31
New Member
Joined: 04-17-05
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
nice read, and dont forget the SRT has MOPAR support, dont like the stock shifter, get a mopar short shifter, bam done!
Dont like the stock gauges bam get the mopar upgraded ones...
gm......anybody hear crickets.....
factory designed parts by the factory!
Dont like the stock gauges bam get the mopar upgraded ones...
gm......anybody hear crickets.....
factory designed parts by the factory!
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
Dont like the seats....then get the mopar katzkin leather option where you can design the seats then get them installed at the dealer and covered under the 3yr/36k bumper to bumper....crickets anyone.....
Leather: standard
Recaros: optional
Crickets! LMAO!
04-25-2005 | 10:40 PM
#32
Senior Member
Joined: 07-06-04
Posts: 2,082
Likes: 2
From: Spaceball 1 or better known as CT
Originally Posted by ssstraub
WTF? You must have never stepped foot inside a GM dealer. The factory performace catalog in the parts shop is as big as phone book.
Crickets?
Leather: standard
Recaros: optional
Crickets! LMAO!
Crickets?
Leather: standard
Recaros: optional
Crickets! LMAO!
Show me in the book where there are factory designed parts for the SS/SC that will allow the types of upgrades that mopar has done then I'll shut up
and the leather, it is a dealer installed and you get to pick what you want colors materials and anything else you want....leather included!
geeze, if leather seats are all you crave for performance.........LSD is much MUCH more important!
Recaro's just get the stock flat leather seats up to spec with the viper seats in the sRT for holding power.
04-25-2005 | 10:45 PM
#33
Senior Member
Joined: 07-06-04
Posts: 2,082
Likes: 2
From: Spaceball 1 or better known as CT
Originally Posted by wesmanw02
2000 Dodge Neon interior
2003 Neon SRT-4 interior
No major changes at all.
And just for comparison, heres the Cobalt's interior:
ya and the stock Cobalt interior is sooooo nice.....
lol
they are all upgraded from the base
04-25-2005 | 10:47 PM
#34
New Member
Joined: 04-17-05
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
Sure tell that to the Sunfire Gt I have, Sunfire 1SC, Trans Am Firehawk and Berger SS camaro I have...the factory performance catalog is just that for older cars and specific LStype engines. Keep an apples to apples comparison huh.
Show me in the book where there are factory designed parts for the SS/SC that will allow the types of upgrades that mopar has done then I'll shut up.
Show me in the book where there are factory designed parts for the SS/SC that will allow the types of upgrades that mopar has done then I'll shut up.
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
and the leather, it is a dealer installed and you get to pick what you want colors materials and anything else you want....leather included!
geeze, if leather seats are all you crave for performance.........LSD is much MUCH more important!
geeze, if leather seats are all you crave for performance.........LSD is much MUCH more important!
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
Recaro's just get the stock flat leather seats up to spec with the viper seats in the sRT for holding power.
04-25-2005 | 10:49 PM
#35
New Member
Joined: 04-17-05
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
ya and the stock Cobalt interior is sooooo nice.....
lol
they are all upgraded from the base
lol
they are all upgraded from the base
I would choose the base Cobalt over the SRT-4 every time. It's so old looking.
Thus ends my posting spree for today! hehe
04-25-2005 | 11:00 PM
#36
Member
Joined: 04-04-05
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: SLC
Originally Posted by ssstraub
I doubt Dodge had all this stuff ready before the SRTs were even at the dealer, which is where we are with the SS/SC. We both know that.
Originally Posted by ssstraub
No, I don't crave them for performance at all, just want them (just like mp3). I agree, the LSD should be standard.
Originally Posted by ssstraub
I agree with you there. The SRT seats are good. I am making fun of you saying "crickets" like the SS doesn't have anything other than base Cobalt seats when it clearly does not. That's just being silly.
04-25-2005 | 11:27 PM
#37
Banned
Joined: 12-14-04
Posts: 841
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by Vooduguru
Which is it? It's either a myth that never applied, or a fact that may not matter any more. The simple fact of the matter is that this "rubberized" plastic is more flexible than ANY HARD "superior" plastic. Even by your own admission the main section of the dash (the upper section unpainted) is a textured material. That "Thud" you're hearing is sound deadening material underneath the thin flimsy plastic. Let me give you a bit of history on dashboards.
The myth is that modern dashboards made of hard plastic are cheap and always crack. It was, However, true back in the 70's and 80's when hard plastic was really cheap, and did often crack, squeak, rattle and fall apart. Not true anymore though.You brought up a good point about the "flexing". One of the reasons hard plastic cracks is due to unneccessary stress brought onto it by the chassis. The J-body is a perfect example, the chassis is about as rigid as a wet noodle, and not suprisingly, the dash on almost every Cavalier cracks. Coincidence? No. The Delta chassis is solid as a rock - bumps and road imperfections are soaked up by the suspension, not the chassis, which is the way it should be. So your whole agrument about the durability of the hard plastic in the Cobalt is pretty much invalid.
1988-Current Most US cars are using less and less foam as their cellular skeletal structures
lowering production costs, and increasing long term durability for the dashboards. Varying degrees of stiffness and thickness would be just as numerous as brands of vehicles that are on the market. Plastic as a core material grew in popularity on an unprecedented scale because of it's ease and flexibility to design new roomier interiors (this is brand wide)
lowering production costs, and increasing long term durability for the dashboards. Varying degrees of stiffness and thickness would be just as numerous as brands of vehicles that are on the market. Plastic as a core material grew in popularity on an unprecedented scale because of it's ease and flexibility to design new roomier interiors (this is brand wide)
The 1997-2003 Cavalier had the Padded plastic dash
Don't post things if you don't know what you're talking about. The 97-04 Cavalier dash is padded, I should know, I have one!! Its basically thin, chinsy plastic with a vinyl convering all around. Does the "soft" vinyl "absorb" the shocks and prevent the dash from cracking?? NO, my dash is practically falling apart, so that agrument is completely invalid as well.
I'll also point out that my 98 Neon with 124k or so miles on it, had NO ZERO NONE of any rattles and squeaks in the interior. I thought I had one once, then I realized my kids threw some pennies down a vent so the speakers would cause them to rattle.
However, the Neon was significanty improved with the 2000 redesign, so much so that the two probably shouldn't even share the same name.SS_SC_Cobalt - I know that both interiors are basically upgrades from their respective base models. The point I was trying to make with those pics was that the Neon wasn't significantly changed from 2000-2003 as Vooduguru said it was
Show me in the book where there are factory designed parts for the SS/SC that will allow the types of upgrades that mopar has done then I'll shut up
and the leather, it is a dealer installed and you get to pick what you want colors materials and anything else you want....leather included!
and the leather, it is a dealer installed and you get to pick what you want colors materials and anything else you want....leather included!
I mean the car just came out, and you are already expecting GMPD to have a whole section of factory upgrades for it?? Give it some time, they can't just come up with things overnight. The only reason they have upgrades for the SRT-4 is because it came out in 2003 not 2005 - in case you didn't notice, thats a 2 year difference And as for the "dealer installed leather"- sounds like a joke to me. How about Dodge just makes it standard on the SRT-4, instead of making people upgrade after the purchase? Thats got to be at least $1500 right there, if not more - not a wise investment IMO, not to mention I'm sure the dealer does a crappy job of installing everything anyway
04-26-2005 | 11:56 AM
#38
Member
Joined: 04-04-05
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: SLC
Originally Posted by wesmanw02
You are the minority when you say that you have a trouble-free 1st-gen Neon. Most of the 1st gens had so many problems that they ended up just bringing them to the junkyard after about the 10th visit to the mechanic.
Keep in mind, compact cars are generally peoples first cars, for the most part they don't
do any maintenance, they just drive till something breaks. That holds true for any brand. Tell me again how many vehicles GM recalled yesterday?
Originally Posted by wesmanw02
Even the paint is trash, most Neons of that generation already have bare metal showing on the hood and roof - and thats under normal conditions
Originally Posted by wesmanw02
However, the Neon was significanty improved with the 2000 redesign, so much so that the two probably shouldn't even share the same name.
SS_SC_Cobalt - I know that both interiors are basically upgrades from their respective base models. The point I was trying to make with those pics was that the Neon wasn't significantly changed from 2000-2003 as Vooduguru said it was
SS_SC_Cobalt - I know that both interiors are basically upgrades from their respective base models. The point I was trying to make with those pics was that the Neon wasn't significantly changed from 2000-2003 as Vooduguru said it was
Originally Posted by wesmanw02
Wow you really expect a lot I mean the car just came out, and you are already expecting GMPD to have a whole section of factory upgrades for it?? Give it some time, they can't just come up with things overnight. The only reason they have upgrades for the SRT-4 is because it came out in 2003 not 2005 - in case you didn't notice, thats a 2 year difference
I mean the car just came out, and you are already expecting GMPD to have a whole section of factory upgrades for it?? Give it some time, they can't just come up with things overnight. The only reason they have upgrades for the SRT-4 is because it came out in 2003 not 2005 - in case you didn't notice, thats a 2 year difference
Originally Posted by wesmanw02
And as for the "dealer installed leather"- sounds like a joke to me. How about Dodge just makes it standard on the SRT-4, instead of making people upgrade after the purchase?
Originally Posted by wesmanw02
Thats got to be at least $1500 right there, if not more - not a wise investment IMO, not to mention I'm sure the dealer does a crappy job of installing everything anyway
04-26-2005 | 12:18 PM
#39
Senior Member
Joined: 04-02-05
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
From: Connecticut
Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
Sure tell that to the Sunfire Gt I have, Sunfire 1SC, Trans Am Firehawk and Berger SS camaro I have...the factory performance catalog is just that for older cars and specific LStype engines. Keep an apples to apples comparison huh.
Show me in the book where there are factory designed parts for the SS/SC that will allow the types of upgrades that mopar has done then I'll shut up
and the leather, it is a dealer installed and you get to pick what you want colors materials and anything else you want....leather included!
geeze, if leather seats are all you crave for performance.........LSD is much MUCH more important!
Recaro's just get the stock flat leather seats up to spec with the viper seats in the sRT for holding power.
Show me in the book where there are factory designed parts for the SS/SC that will allow the types of upgrades that mopar has done then I'll shut up
and the leather, it is a dealer installed and you get to pick what you want colors materials and anything else you want....leather included!
geeze, if leather seats are all you crave for performance.........LSD is much MUCH more important!
Recaro's just get the stock flat leather seats up to spec with the viper seats in the sRT for holding power.
www.gmaccessorieszone.com
Also tons of things for every other car.... everyone needs to do a little mroe research before they say there is nothing out there.
04-26-2005 | 12:25 PM
#40
Senior Member
Joined: 04-02-05
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
From: Connecticut
Originally Posted by Vooduguru
Mopar already had the catalogs out with the upgrades out before the car even came out. So all the R&D was done, it was just a matter of getting the manufacturers getting the units shipped to the dealers was a whole different story.
Originally Posted by Vooduguru
Leather has it's pluses and minuses, in the winter they're cold. If you don't keep em moisturized they wear faster and like I said earlier, the seating surfaces are leather trimmed. Meaning they're not totally leather like say a BMW or Benz
Originally Posted by Vooduguru
Silly is as silly does, and to the person that said the neon interior was OLD. Can't go wrong with a classic, how does that idiot light work when you overheat?
04-26-2005 | 12:36 PM
#41
Senior Member
Joined: 04-02-05
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
From: Connecticut
Originally Posted by Vooduguru
That is a myth if I ever heard of one. The only MAJOR problem that the neon had and even still only affected the 95-97 m/y to a degree of about 15% of them (considering that Chrysler made about 2.3m during that timeframe) was the head gasket. It took a while to figure out what was causing the problem. It got traced back to the installation of the head on the assy line. The last head bolt tightened on the assy line was against the firewall nearest the steering column. This was the hardest bolt to reach and it was determined that it wasn't basically tight enough (about 4 ft/lbs shy on needed torque) So those that had the heads installed on the blocks that were already in the cars had the issues IF the owner of the car never bothered paying attention to things like temperature, and never bothered checking the oil for thousands of miles. Had they done this simple procedure (by simple I mean LOOKING at the gauge cluster) then it wouldn't have caused a catostrophic failure. From early 98 to current they assembled the head and block outside the car and went to a new gasket material that was stronger and able to withstand ignorant owners that never bothered doing a lick of maintenance.
Originally Posted by Vooduguru
Nope, Chryslers PVO team had announced the staged upgrades before the 2003 ever landed on dealer lots. There were catalogs and detailed descriptions as to what would be coming down the pike from Mopar. The only thing that hadn't been released was exact pricing. GM hasn't done much to announce what THEY will be offering. I don't think the Turbo add on kit was developed BY GM but rather by an aftermarket company that GM MAY test to add in their catalog. But I'm not really sure. I won't speculate like you have my friend
04-26-2005 | 12:38 PM
#42
Member
Joined: 04-04-05
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: SLC
Originally Posted by Chevy4Life85
100% not true... there is already upgrades for the base model cobalts and there will be many for the SS in June of this year
www.gmaccessorieszone.com
Also tons of things for every other car.... everyone needs to do a little mroe research before they say there is nothing out there.
www.gmaccessorieszone.com
Also tons of things for every other car.... everyone needs to do a little mroe research before they say there is nothing out there.
Lets take a looksee shall we?
Originally Posted by www.gmaccessorieszone.com
17 inch Wheels - ST610
GM Validated Accessory Wheels are an attractive alternative for your GM vehicle. Available with matching center caps and lug nuts.
Exhaust Tips
Sporty appearance adds style to the exterior of your vehicle. Designed to slip over the tailpipe section of your vehicle's existing exhaust, these steel exhaust tips will not rust or corrode.
Outside Rear View Mirror Cover Outside Rear View Mirror Cover
Accent the outside of your vehicle with these color keyed mirror covers.
Electronics
Distress Strobe Light
Engine Block Heater
Exterior
Bodyside Molding Package
Contour Splash Guards
Exhaust Tips
Grille
Molded Hood Protector
Molded Splash Guards
Outside Door Handle Cover
Outside Rear View Mirror Cover
Side Door Handle
Side Window Weather Deflector
Spoiler Kit
Interior
Armrest Package
Floor Mats - Front and Rear Carpet Replacements
Floor Mats - Front Premium All Weather
Floor Mats - Rear Premium All Weather
Interior Trim Kit - Instrument Panel
Shift Knob Trim Plate
Smoker's Package
GM Validated Accessory Wheels are an attractive alternative for your GM vehicle. Available with matching center caps and lug nuts.
Exhaust Tips
Sporty appearance adds style to the exterior of your vehicle. Designed to slip over the tailpipe section of your vehicle's existing exhaust, these steel exhaust tips will not rust or corrode.
Outside Rear View Mirror Cover Outside Rear View Mirror Cover
Accent the outside of your vehicle with these color keyed mirror covers.
Electronics
Distress Strobe Light
Engine Block Heater
Exterior
Bodyside Molding Package
Contour Splash Guards
Exhaust Tips
Grille
Molded Hood Protector
Molded Splash Guards
Outside Door Handle Cover
Outside Rear View Mirror Cover
Side Door Handle
Side Window Weather Deflector
Spoiler Kit
Interior
Armrest Package
Floor Mats - Front and Rear Carpet Replacements
Floor Mats - Front Premium All Weather
Floor Mats - Rear Premium All Weather
Interior Trim Kit - Instrument Panel
Shift Knob Trim Plate
Smoker's Package
Now let's look at Mopar shall we?
Originally Posted by www.mopar.com
The Stage 1 Turbo Kit for the SRT4 boosts power to 240 hp and 260 ft.-lbs. of torque.
Add Part # Description Price
P4510592 *Stage 1 Turbo Upgrade Kit $399.00
280 hp and 300 ft/lbs torque
Stage 2 Turbo Upgrade Kit without Turbo Toys $999.00
With Toys $1,599.00
Stage 3 Turbo Upgrade Kit $2999.0
Kit boosts power to 310 hp at 5600 rpm and 325 ft.-lbs. of torque at 3200-4800 rpm. Stage 3R Kit in high-octane mode increases power to 355 hp at 5200 rpm and 365 ft.-lbs. of torque at 3200-4800 rpm!
Mopar Short Throw Shifter
Direct, bolt-on, self-contained unit improves shifting performance, due to reduced shifter travel. In performance driving scenarios, the additional seconds a factory-equipped shifter takes to go from one gear to another may result in slower lap times. utomatic torque-biasing Limited-Slip improves handling and steering, and powers both drive wheels under nearly all conditions. Internal components sense which wheel has better grip and biases more power to that wheel. Installation Kit required.
Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510588 LSD Installation Kit (2003 SRT4, 2002-05 Stratus R/T Sedan/Sebring Convertible V6 T-850 MTX) $68.00
P5007923 Limited Slip Differential (2003 only SRT4, 2002-05 Stratus R/T Sedan, Sebring Conv. V6 T-850 MTX) $1383.00
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510485 Short-Throw Shifter Direct Bolt-On, Self-Contained Unit (2003-05 SRT4, 2000-05 Neon) $119.00
Exhaust System features T304 stainless steel construction (aircraft quality) with mandrel-bent tubing, stainless band (torca) clamps and polished tips. This free-flow system provides a horsepower and torque gain, improved fuel economy and a deeper tone.
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510461 Cat-Back Exhaust Dual Outlet, 2.50" Diameter Tubing, 4.00" OD Tips (2003-05 SRT4) $385.00
Made from high-quality bar material ensures durability and heightens performance, ride and handling by virtually eliminating body roll. An exclusive adjustable rear sway bar allows you to tune in the system to your specific driving needs!
Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510454 Stage 1 Anti-Sway Bar Kit 26 mm Front, 19 mm Rear, 3-Position Adjustable (2003-05 SRT4) $499.0
These Performance Springs are made from high-tensile spring material that ensures durability and heightens spring performance without bind. They provide a 25 mm drop from the stock ride height.
Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510458 Stage 1 Performance Springs Front and Rear (2003-05 SRT4) $250.00
The Stage Kit allows you to lower your vehicle within a specified range using adjustable aluminum spring perches to suit your driving needs. It is height adjustable from 030 mm lower than factory, and includes fixed-valve dampers.
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510447 Stage 2 Coilover Suspension Kit (2003-05 SRT4) $1395.00
he Stage 3R Damper Kit is designed for the serious club sport driver and includes all the build quality and features of the Stage 2 and 3 Kits, but with added racing features.
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510825 Stage 3R Damper Kit Race Only, Double-Adjustable Threaded Strut Kit (2003-05 SRT4) $2300.00
This was all announced before the first SRT ever hit dealer floors
Parts sold seperately as well:
P4510063 Fuel Rail Assembly Demand Regulated (Stage 3) $279.00
P4510365 3.0 Bar Map Sensor (Stage 2, 3) $80.00
P4510366 3.0 Bar Tip Sensor (Stage 2, 3) $110.00
P4510529 Fuel Injector +30%, Sold Individually (Stage 2, 3) $89.00
P4510554 Fuel Pump Module 75 psi Regulated (Stage 3) $699.00
P4510595 Wastegate Actuator P350 (Stage 2) $129.00
P4510596 Wastegate Actuator P420 (Stage 3) $289.00
P4510601 Bezel Assembly (Turbo Toys) $199.00
P4510602 Sprayer Bracket (Turbo Toys) $399.00
P4510625 Water Jet (Turbo Toys) Contact Dealer
P4510626 Inline Water Filter (Turbo Toys) $29.00
P4510632 Sprayer Pump (Turbo Toys) $60.00
P4510861 Wire Harness Terminals Set of 10 (Turbo Toys) $10.00
P4510862 Blue LED Wire Harness (Turbo Toys) $4.00
P4510863 Red LED Wire Harness (Turbo Toys) $4.00
P4510864 Iconel Center Section Turbo Cartridge (Stage 3) $750.00
P4510865 TiAl Center Section Turbo Cartridge (Stage 3) $1650.00 P4510866 TD05HR Hardware Kit Includes Clamp, Snap Ring, Actuator and Elbow Bolts (Stage 3) $120.00
P4510867 Compressor Cover Kit Includes Cover, Surge Bypass Valve, and Surge Valve Bolts (Stage 3) $225.00
P4510868 Blow-Off Valve Diaphragm (Stage 1, 2, 3) $89.00
P4510922 Sprayer Brackets Set of 2 (Turbo Toys) $25.00
P4510923 Water Jets Set of 4 (Turbo Toys) $129.00
P4510538 Carbon Fiber Valve Cover (2003-05 SRT4, 2003-05 PT Turbo) $565.00
Powder-Coated Valve Cover (2003-05 SRT4, 2003-05 PT Turbo) $160.00
Clutch can handle 430 Nˇm (315 ft.-lbs.) torque, and torsion disc package exceeds 500 Nˇm torque capacity before coil bind. It features a racing grade organic friction disc lining with torsion damper disc and a heat-treated pressure plate.
Part # Description Price
P4510647 Clutch (2003-05 SRT4) $599.00
These lightweight alloy, high-tensile race springs increase travel before spring bind than standard linear springs. Different rates can be combined with the valving to produce various handling characteristics. Sold in pairs.
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510817 Front Helper Spring (2003-05 SRT4) $119.00
Add Part # Description Price
P4510592 *Stage 1 Turbo Upgrade Kit $399.00
280 hp and 300 ft/lbs torque
Stage 2 Turbo Upgrade Kit without Turbo Toys $999.00
With Toys $1,599.00
Stage 3 Turbo Upgrade Kit $2999.0
Kit boosts power to 310 hp at 5600 rpm and 325 ft.-lbs. of torque at 3200-4800 rpm. Stage 3R Kit in high-octane mode increases power to 355 hp at 5200 rpm and 365 ft.-lbs. of torque at 3200-4800 rpm!
Mopar Short Throw Shifter
Direct, bolt-on, self-contained unit improves shifting performance, due to reduced shifter travel. In performance driving scenarios, the additional seconds a factory-equipped shifter takes to go from one gear to another may result in slower lap times. utomatic torque-biasing Limited-Slip improves handling and steering, and powers both drive wheels under nearly all conditions. Internal components sense which wheel has better grip and biases more power to that wheel. Installation Kit required.
Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510588 LSD Installation Kit (2003 SRT4, 2002-05 Stratus R/T Sedan/Sebring Convertible V6 T-850 MTX) $68.00
P5007923 Limited Slip Differential (2003 only SRT4, 2002-05 Stratus R/T Sedan, Sebring Conv. V6 T-850 MTX) $1383.00
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510485 Short-Throw Shifter Direct Bolt-On, Self-Contained Unit (2003-05 SRT4, 2000-05 Neon) $119.00
Exhaust System features T304 stainless steel construction (aircraft quality) with mandrel-bent tubing, stainless band (torca) clamps and polished tips. This free-flow system provides a horsepower and torque gain, improved fuel economy and a deeper tone.
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510461 Cat-Back Exhaust Dual Outlet, 2.50" Diameter Tubing, 4.00" OD Tips (2003-05 SRT4) $385.00
Made from high-quality bar material ensures durability and heightens performance, ride and handling by virtually eliminating body roll. An exclusive adjustable rear sway bar allows you to tune in the system to your specific driving needs!
Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510454 Stage 1 Anti-Sway Bar Kit 26 mm Front, 19 mm Rear, 3-Position Adjustable (2003-05 SRT4) $499.0
These Performance Springs are made from high-tensile spring material that ensures durability and heightens spring performance without bind. They provide a 25 mm drop from the stock ride height.
Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510458 Stage 1 Performance Springs Front and Rear (2003-05 SRT4) $250.00
The Stage Kit allows you to lower your vehicle within a specified range using adjustable aluminum spring perches to suit your driving needs. It is height adjustable from 030 mm lower than factory, and includes fixed-valve dampers.
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510447 Stage 2 Coilover Suspension Kit (2003-05 SRT4) $1395.00
he Stage 3R Damper Kit is designed for the serious club sport driver and includes all the build quality and features of the Stage 2 and 3 Kits, but with added racing features.
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510825 Stage 3R Damper Kit Race Only, Double-Adjustable Threaded Strut Kit (2003-05 SRT4) $2300.00
This was all announced before the first SRT ever hit dealer floors
Parts sold seperately as well:
P4510063 Fuel Rail Assembly Demand Regulated (Stage 3) $279.00
P4510365 3.0 Bar Map Sensor (Stage 2, 3) $80.00
P4510366 3.0 Bar Tip Sensor (Stage 2, 3) $110.00
P4510529 Fuel Injector +30%, Sold Individually (Stage 2, 3) $89.00
P4510554 Fuel Pump Module 75 psi Regulated (Stage 3) $699.00
P4510595 Wastegate Actuator P350 (Stage 2) $129.00
P4510596 Wastegate Actuator P420 (Stage 3) $289.00
P4510601 Bezel Assembly (Turbo Toys) $199.00
P4510602 Sprayer Bracket (Turbo Toys) $399.00
P4510625 Water Jet (Turbo Toys) Contact Dealer
P4510626 Inline Water Filter (Turbo Toys) $29.00
P4510632 Sprayer Pump (Turbo Toys) $60.00
P4510861 Wire Harness Terminals Set of 10 (Turbo Toys) $10.00
P4510862 Blue LED Wire Harness (Turbo Toys) $4.00
P4510863 Red LED Wire Harness (Turbo Toys) $4.00
P4510864 Iconel Center Section Turbo Cartridge (Stage 3) $750.00
P4510865 TiAl Center Section Turbo Cartridge (Stage 3) $1650.00 P4510866 TD05HR Hardware Kit Includes Clamp, Snap Ring, Actuator and Elbow Bolts (Stage 3) $120.00
P4510867 Compressor Cover Kit Includes Cover, Surge Bypass Valve, and Surge Valve Bolts (Stage 3) $225.00
P4510868 Blow-Off Valve Diaphragm (Stage 1, 2, 3) $89.00
P4510922 Sprayer Brackets Set of 2 (Turbo Toys) $25.00
P4510923 Water Jets Set of 4 (Turbo Toys) $129.00
P4510538 Carbon Fiber Valve Cover (2003-05 SRT4, 2003-05 PT Turbo) $565.00
Powder-Coated Valve Cover (2003-05 SRT4, 2003-05 PT Turbo) $160.00
Clutch can handle 430 Nˇm (315 ft.-lbs.) torque, and torsion disc package exceeds 500 Nˇm torque capacity before coil bind. It features a racing grade organic friction disc lining with torsion damper disc and a heat-treated pressure plate.
Part # Description Price
P4510647 Clutch (2003-05 SRT4) $599.00
These lightweight alloy, high-tensile race springs increase travel before spring bind than standard linear springs. Different rates can be combined with the valving to produce various handling characteristics. Sold in pairs.
Add Part # Description Price Addl. Info
P4510817 Front Helper Spring (2003-05 SRT4) $119.00
Looks like GMaccessrzone has A TON of catching up to do
04-26-2005 | 12:40 PM
#43
Member
Joined: 04-04-05
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: SLC
Originally Posted by Chevy4Life85
Call chevy right now... there is a long list of upgrades coming out soon for the SS, they could make a catalog now if they wanted but they dont want to tease.
Its not all leather for a reason... the mesh insert that isnt leather is to keep you in a more solid position in the seat and to prevent sliding around like you wuold on leather.
Also those pics a few poss back of the older more stock neon and the SRT shows that the srt is a NEON with a Boost gauge... and dont say back well the Cobalt SS is a Cobalt with a boost gauge we know this the point is the cobalt is nicer I dont mind admitting to being a cobalt owner I dont have to defend it actually people think its cool unlike a neon.
Its not all leather for a reason... the mesh insert that isnt leather is to keep you in a more solid position in the seat and to prevent sliding around like you wuold on leather.
Also those pics a few poss back of the older more stock neon and the SRT shows that the srt is a NEON with a Boost gauge... and dont say back well the Cobalt SS is a Cobalt with a boost gauge we know this the point is the cobalt is nicer I dont mind admitting to being a cobalt owner I dont have to defend it actually people think its cool unlike a neon.
when people ask me what I drive, I say a Neon on crack!
04-26-2005 | 01:03 PM
#44
New Member
Joined: 04-04-05
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: Pennsylvania
There is no reason for you guys to be arguing. Everyone has their own opinions and neither one of you is going to change the other ones mind. IMHO both cars kick ass I sat in both and loved them both. I do think the the cobalt's interior looks a little nicer. I thought that they would have made the interior different on the srt than a normal neon, but it really did not bother me. I have decided to go with the cobalt for a few reasons. One is my dad gets a big discount for gm. Another is this will be my daily driver and the cobalts added features will make my daily drive comfortable and fun. And the last reason is that neons were recently rated one of the worst cars for saftey, atleast thats what I have been told. The cobalt w/side airbags and the camry were the only small cars to pass the gov'ts side crash test. All these things sold the cobalt to me, but it took me 6 months of deciding before I choose. For some the neon would make more sense eg.people who actually need the extra power people who race their cars or people who already have a daily driver. We need to just stop fighting and get along. We all share a common enemy in the import cars. We need to band together and kick the imports asses. Any ways thats just my 2 cents.
04-26-2005 | 03:00 PM
#45
Member
Joined: 04-04-05
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: SLC
Originally Posted by scutzi128
There is no reason for you guys to be arguing. Everyone has their own opinions and neither one of you is going to change the other ones mind. IMHO both cars kick ass I sat in both and loved them both. I do think the the cobalt's interior looks a little nicer. I thought that they would have made the interior different on the srt than a normal neon, but it really did not bother me. I have decided to go with the cobalt for a few reasons. One is my dad gets a big discount for gm. Another is this will be my daily driver and the cobalts added features will make my daily drive comfortable and fun. And the last reason is that neons were recently rated one of the worst cars for saftey, atleast thats what I have been told. The cobalt w/side airbags and the camry were the only small cars to pass the gov'ts side crash test. All these things sold the cobalt to me, but it took me 6 months of deciding before I choose. For some the neon would make more sense eg.people who actually need the extra power people who race their cars or people who already have a daily driver. We need to just stop fighting and get along. We all share a common enemy in the import cars. We need to band together and kick the imports asses. Any ways thats just my 2 cents.
I agree with the above post. My main beef with many of the "die hards" is the assumption "Oh it's JUST a neon, and ALL/ANYTHING Neon is a POS, POS interior, POS suspension, POS engine" etc. The neon has an illustrious history in competition and 99% of it is grass roots level with hardly ANY manufacturer involvement other than what factory aftermarket equipment is offered. I think I've been very respectful of the Cobalt and have been factual in my statements. I revel in retaliating to inaccuracies stated on my car of choice, as I would expect any of you to do the same if any inaccuracies were stated about the Cobalt
04-26-2005 | 04:44 PM
#46
Senior Member
Joined: 07-06-04
Posts: 2,082
Likes: 2
From: Spaceball 1 or better known as CT
Originally Posted by ssstraub
I doubt Dodge had all this stuff ready before the SRTs were even at the dealer, which is where we are with the SS/SC. We both know that.
No, I don't crave them for performance at all, just want them (just like mp3). I agree, the LSD should be standard.
I agree with you there. The SRT seats are good. I am making fun of you saying "crickets" like the SS doesn't have anything other than base Cobalt seats when it clearly does not. That's just being silly.
No, I don't crave them for performance at all, just want them (just like mp3). I agree, the LSD should be standard.
I agree with you there. The SRT seats are good. I am making fun of you saying "crickets" like the SS doesn't have anything other than base Cobalt seats when it clearly does not. That's just being silly.
and the rep that was assigned the job of logistics told us.the crickets were meant to imply that all you hear from gm is the crickets in the background, no one is talking. It's like the Eco 2.2 supercharger kit which has been coming out for like 3 years ....I spent a great deal of time talkin to one of the GM product engineers at last years GM bash and we got to talking about my SRT-4 and at the time it's stage 1, and he flat out asked me how I liked it and I resoundingly said it's great! He then talked how stage or phase upgrades as GM calls them are on the table and they were looking for opionions on them from prospective buyers, he asked me all sorts of questions for over an hr and took notes, I mentioned to him one of the BEST things was having SRT engineers on the forums and he said "they would look into it"
The SS has some nice seats but they are way too flat stock, I was taking the twisties in the car I test drove and I was sliding all over the place in them, leather is not thebest for holding you in, that's why when I did my seats in the SRT I used suede in the middle, much cooler and grips you even more....also why the recaros only have leather in the sides and not the middle
04-26-2005 | 04:50 PM
#47
Senior Member
Joined: 07-06-04
Posts: 2,082
Likes: 2
From: Spaceball 1 or better known as CT
BTW the katzkin leather upgrade is dealer installed, but they send it out to a Katzkin APPROVED installer the dealer does the ordering and collects the $$
It isnt joe mechanic doing them.
and remember I said PERFORMANCE upgrades, the smokers kit doesnt count
It isnt joe mechanic doing them.
and remember I said PERFORMANCE upgrades, the smokers kit doesnt count
04-26-2005 | 08:18 PM
#48
New Member
Joined: 04-17-05
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by Vooduguru
Silly is as silly does, and to the person that said the neon interior was OLD. Can't go wrong with a classic, how does that idiot light work when you overheat?
Yeah, the SRT has a better cluster, no doubt!