GreenStang

Well guys I didn't add any more coolant to the system after changing the coolant tank and after driving about 200 miles the low coolant warning message finally came on and it is indeed low so I added some coolant. Any ideas where to go from here?

Thanks

exninja

iTrader: (1)

Did you get the oil analysis?

GreenStang

I have not gotten the oil analysis yet, the oil in my car on the dipstick looks great, but inside the valve cover has some milky residue but hard to say whether that's condensation or not. I was planning to do the oil analysis when my oil needs changed (I probably have some where around 50% oil life left). Is there anything else I can check in the meantime? I was thinking about one of those dye and black light kits maybe? Although I didn't see one that was compatible with Dex-Cool and also remember the pressure tester will not work on the coolant bottle (I was using the pressure tester correctly) and my local Chevy dealer STILL has not gotten back to me regarding the quote I asked for replacing the head gasket and oil cooler (I've even called and checked on the quote and I was told by the guy that he hasn't had time yet and he told me he was gonna call me later that day with the quote and guess what? He didn't lol) so why do I mention this? Well because my local Chevy dealer did tell me that they did a pressure test on my car and a dye test, how did they do a pressure test if I couldn't do one myself? How did they do a dye test if I haven't found one compatible with Dex Cool? Also after they informed me of the results of the pressure test the guy was telling me about stuff the problem could be and he said something about the supercharger or something and I said they are 2 separate systems and he's like "Oh". So needless to say I don't really think this dealer knows much about cars, and I do know for a fact from first hand experience that their salesmen aren't good. Also now they have a "Help wanted" sign out front needing mechanics haha.

So all in all, is there anything else I can test in the meantime of waiting for my next oil change?

Thanks

exninja

iTrader: (1)

There's definitely a dye test that they do. They did it to mine. That crap gets everywhere.

ItalianJoe1

iTrader: (10)

If it's actually losing coolant and it's not hitting the ground it has to be going inside the engine.

Inside is a couple possible places though, which is bad.

I've seen cyl walls crack, allowing coolant to seep into the engine and burn off, didn't look like a typical blown HG or anything, very slight coolant loss, similar to yours.

It can be pressure tested with the correct adapter, GM dealers will have one, the generic kit at advance auto may not. If this is a very small leak or only shows up when the engine is warm it may not be detected.

Dye has the same problem, may not detect a small leak going into the combustion chamber.

It's an expensive option, but a borescope is the next suggestion I would have. Pull the plugs and look around the tops of the cyl walls for any discoloration, clean spots, visible cracks, etc.

If the head gasket was done and the sealing surface is not flat or there was some sort of other installer error, it could be leaking in that area.

cluelessk

Or pay a mechanic to diagnose it.

You're wasting time and money by throwing parts at it.

GreenStang

The username says it all, clueless. I haven't bought any parts lol? No where in my thread does it mention me buying parts lol. And I have paid a mechanic, as I've mentioned in my thread I've been taking the car to a Chevy Dealer. Thanks for your comment though clueless, pun intended lol.

GreenStang

Still haven't gotten this problem sorted out. Now that spring semester of college is over I can finally focus on getting this diagnosed.

It's still losing coolant slowly, no overheating (temp rises when in traffic or going super slow up driveway), and same milky look inside valve cover (condensation or no?).

I was going to just bite the bullet of the hell of it and get the head gasket replaced by my Chevy dealer, but after calling them numerous times and trying to get the price and them not calling me back with the price like they said, they will not be getting my business. I'm thinking about just taking my car to my local NAPA service center, although I really wanted to only take it to Chevy to be worked on. What's everyone's thoughts on that? I'm thinking the problem could be the water pump leaking slowly? I've taken that little inspection cover off before but it's hard to see anything in there, is there any other way to diagnose the water pump as the culprit?

cluelessk

No reason to use a GM shop unless a car is warrantied.

Everyone should have a trusted private mechanic.

taytoe

Read a bit of your situation and having just gone through the same thing over the last year of losing coolant, not over heating, no real smoke, and getting lower KM per tank.

I was building pressure in the expansion tank though but if yours wasn't sealing properly you'd never notice I guess, any change with that since replacing the expansion tank?

Any issue with how the head gasket was done in the first place, any information on how much material was taken off the head? Type of gasket it was replaced with?
There's a few aftermarket gasket suppliers for the 06 ss/sc and not all are made out of oem materials, after some research I bought the Victor Reinz top end set and the front cover set and a sealed power timing/balance set. (Head gasket can be installed upside down).

When I got to the "it needs to fixed" point was after beating on the car a bit and trying to find the fail part or blow it up, finally got a bit of white out the tail pipe and started over heating on regular driving. With the aluminium parts and a metal gasket I found it really never acted like any other blown head gasket I've driven.

I did pick up a cheap inspection camera to really scope out the cylinders and what I could see of the combustion chambers, I guess the cylinder sleeves can crack same with the head around valves/spark plug so after $85 looked like the head and block were ok where I could see.

Ordered parts because really what else could it be, I did look into the oil cooler but as others have pointed out would be different symptoms.

All in was $450 USD for all the parts and where I don't have access to a shop/garage it was $900 CAD on labour and was holding my breath till the head came off and saw my diagnosis was right.
Car works great now, 2006 ss/sc 180,000km problem showed at 170,000km, just over 100k miles timing chain was about ready to fail as well, I wouldn't worry about your water pump it's clearly moving water. For the stop leak stuff I think my head told me it helped but I also started grandma driving and pretty sure in the end just added to the rebuild time having to clear that gunk out.

GreenStang

Thanks for the detailed reply. First off, I do not know how much the head was shaved, nor do I know the brand of parts that were used. I do know the timing chain was replaced along with the head gasket on mine as well (more than likely due to already being at it).

As for the expansion tank: I replaced my old expansion tank with a brand new one from GM. Car still does the same thing, loses coolant, and no difference at all other than I have a better looking coolant tank lol. Something I must question though: How can you have a pressure build up in the expansion tank? When I tried to pressure test the coolant system from the expansion tank it would not even build any pressure. Instead all the air I was pumping into the expansion tank with the pressure tester was exiting via the bleeder or whatever little slot it is that is open on the expansion tank (I think it's mentioned in my thread somewhere if you need further clarification of what I am referring too).

The previous owner that tried to track this problem down as well informed me when I contacted him of all of this work that he had done trying to find the culprit of this problem. While I agree it could be a head gasket issue, it sure would suck to replace it when the previous owner informed you that he just replaced it and obviously the issue still persists.

The car only runs at a higher temp (190-200) when going super slow, or stopped). Otherwise it runs 170-185 all the time. It has a milky look when removing the oil cap, but could just be condensation? Oil stick looks great. GM looked; and I did as well for leaks with nothing showing up. GM also pressure tested and said it only lost like a pound of pressure in over an hour span. They informed me this small loss of pressure could be due to their pressure tester not making a "perfect seal". They informed me some cars pressure test fine when hot, but the pressure test shows the problem when it's pressure tester cold? I have removed the water pump inspection plate to check for a leak there that may not show up visibly from the outside? The inspection plate doesn't allow you to see anything, and is pretty useless. I performed the combustion gas test with the dye inside a beaker and it passed (included in the thread).

My only theories:

Water pump may have a small leak that only shows when running? The water pump slows down at slower speeds which could explain the temp increase at slower speeds or when stopped.

Head gasket install was not done properly by previous owner and simply needs done again the right way.

Porous block, but i have no faith in this theory because I strongly believe this would show up on one of the tests that have been performed.

Right now I am basically just driving the car, and adding coolant when it gets near the full mark (I over fill it to be safe because it loses some obviously). I am hoping the problem ether shows itself more clearly, or it goes away lol (would be even better!). I am going to be doing an oil change soon and I will be sending off an oil analysis. Funny my car has like 40 something percent oil life left and the oil still looks brand new and gold.

Feel free to comment back with your thoughts.

Thanks,

CW

taytoe

I found the cobalt's cooling system to work well enough to bring the temps down the safe-ish range 95-110c (close to your hot range), I found if I did a few pulls back to back I could get it up over 115c which made things more difficult to diagnose but back to back runs made it show.

You are also running more cooling mods with less boost than I am so the robust cooling system could be helping hide the problem.

You can try to get a more clear view of the water pump inspection point be removing the passenger tire and fender liner, after all my research though it seemed like a very low fail part, it's also chain driven so relies on engine RPM.

Porous block was one of the first things to come up on my searching but as you said there's more symptoms.

As for the clean oil on the dipstick I had the same outcome but I'm guessing that's because the water sits on top of the oil, although when my got drained there wasn't a huge amount of coolant in the oil but you could see it and looked clean on the dipstick the whole time. The major indicator was the snot under the oil cap.

I'd keep doing what you are doing, keep a close eye on your temps so you don't damage anything and keep monitoring oil sludging on cap (if your oil goes to sludge it will block oil passageways, was a lot of cleaning to my block and head).

Another couple basics if you can, compression test while cold, check your plugs see if they are all burning even on mine the head gasket let go between 2 and 3 so those cylinders were lower and the #3 plug was fouled badly and near the end tripped a cylinder 3 misfire code but cleared itself almost instantly. Also found the car was trying to use the supercharger more since the engine was down on power.

GreenStang

Interesting. Sounds like you basically had the same symptoms as my car does now, but my car with the added cooling mods could be hiding the problem a little better like you said.

Let me ask: How much did it cost you USD to get the head gasket replaced? Did you purchase the parts yourself, or have the dealer purchase it all for you? Are there any parts I should purchase for the head gasket replacement that are recommended over the stock parts?

I'm thinking of just getting this head gasket replacement done. But also another thought that crosses my mind is getting a new engine. My engine has 170k miles on it now. An engine couldn't cost much more than what they would charge for a head gasket replacement, I wouldn't think so at least. What are your thoughts on this?

It's getting very tiring of having to limit where I go in my car because I am worried about this issue, plus having to check and add coolant all the time.

I look forward to your response.

Thanks,

CW

taytoe

Where you are in America I'd suggest taking a look at the crate engine depot website they have really nice kits for head gasket and timing/balance oem parts and you wouldn't have to worry about exchange and duty.

Head Gasket Kit (Might want a supercharger gasket but yours "should" be fresh if the head gasket was just done.)
Timing Chain Kit (If yours was just done "shouldn't" need.)
Balance Chain Kit

I went through rockauto and was just over $450USD for head gasket kit/timing chain kit/balance chain kit (the timing kit was the only one I had issues with the crank and water pump cogs were for a 2.2/2.4), here my parts list:
ACDELCO PF457G (PF457GF) Oil Filter
ACDELCO 12T103D Thermostat
SEALED POWER KT4017S (KT-4017S) Timing Set
SEALED POWER KT4016S (KT-4016S) Timing Set
VICTOR REINZ HS54840 Cylinder Head Gasket / Head Gasket Set
VICTOR REINZ GS33434 Cylinder Head Bolt
VICTOR REINZ JV5068 Timing Cover Gasket Set (Front cover/inspection plate)

For install it was done by a local shop for $900 CAD, it's a pretty simple job to get done and something that definitely could be done in a home garage with the proper tools. The ecotec is a fairly simple engine and the supercharger setup is very clear and easy to work with, not something I'd pay dealer prices to have worked on given it's 10+ years old.

Thoughts on replacement engine sadly a determination after the head has come off would be best, if your sleeves and block are in good shape with no damage to the head getting it put back together in proper order will make a world of difference and have you smiling for more like $1200-1500. If you were budgeting over $2000 could start looking at some upgrade s2 injectors, tune, 2.9 pulley, s2 belt; should have a lot more access to a tuner down there as well.

GreenStang

Still dealing with this issue. I finally changed the oil in the car for the first time, and no visual sign of anything in the oil, it was just black. Funny enough the dipstick showed pretty good looking gold/clear looking oil, but upon draining as I have mentioned the oil was black. The car even said the oil life had like 41% remaining lol. The filter looked like it had never been changed, and frankly I cannot blame one for not wanting to change it because the location of the oil filter is an engineering feat all in its self (sarcasm)! I had to bend my arm around the throttle body so hard that metal literally indented my arm and bruised my arm internally! I did take a sample of the oil, and I have it sitting in my tool box. I just wonder if its worth sending the oil out for an analysis if it didn't look like it had any coolant in it at all? I have explored every possibility one could imagine to try and find this coolant leak, but I have not been able to track it down.


Here's a list of tests that have been performed:


Car has been pressure tested = Shop said it lost about a pound of pressure over a 2 hour period of time, but said that could be their gauge connection losing that little bit of pressure due to it not making a "perfect" seal.


Car has been dye tested for combustion gases in the coolant system = Passed test.


Shop removed spark plugs to visually inspect for leaks = no sign of leak.


Previous owner changed head gasket because of this coolant loss issue and he also said the valve cover was milky = still loses coolant.


The only thing I can think of here is that when the shop pressure tested it, after the test I informed the shop foreman that the super charger and cars coolant system are two separate systems, and he seemed surprised by this. So I am not sure if he just didn't know that and the people that actually do work on the cars did know this, or if they all were clueless lol? My thing here is that when I tried to pressure test the car myself through the expansion tank it would not build pressure due to some slot that it cut in the expansion tank (can't remember the name of this slot or its purpose but it is documented in this thread). So all of this being said: Does anyone have any other ideas on what to do to try and track down this coolant leak? I am about tempted to resort to some BARS leak at this point (Yes I know of what it "can" do, but hell at this point...). Any ideas are appreciated.


Thanks!

GreenStang

Okay, so I thought of something: I have the ZZP Stealth Radiator or whatever you want to call it? It has a radiator cap on it, so couldn't I pressure test the coolant system from it instead of the expansion tank? The expansion tank cannot be used for a pressure test due to the pressure disc relief valve built underneath the expansion tank cap, it will not allow it to build pressure. Someone please chime in.


Thanks

exninja

iTrader: (1)

Just test the oil!

ItalianJoe1

iTrader: (10)

Wait are you talking about the supercharger system losing coolant? The ZZP stealth heat exchanger isn't connected to your engine cooling system.

GreenStang

ItalianJoe,


Thanks for pointing that out, I actually realized that after I had posted that lol. So my question would be: How did GM do a pressure test on my cars actual coolant system? You can't use the expansion tank due to the built in valve relief under the cap, the heat exchanger is the super charger coolant system, and there's no other place (that I know of) to hook a pressure tester???

ECaulk

iTrader: (6)

They have an adapter to connect to the expansion tank. The relief cap pops at like 15psi, so they test at 10psi (using estimates ItalianJoe1 might know the actual values)

ItalianJoe1

iTrader: (10)

You can use the bottle, you just need the right cap.

The GM bottles (same on almost all cars) use a cap that seals from the o-ring on the center, not the threads or top. Above that o-ring but below the top of the threads is the vent. If you only seal the top surface like some adapters, it will allow any pressure to vent out and not build up. If you have the right adapter it seals just like the stock cap, applies pressure to the bottle and keeps it isolate from the vent.

ItalianJoe1

iTrader: (10)

The relief pressure is in the OEM cap, whatever's written on it, 15psi or so. It has a valve that opens after a certain pressure to release, above the o-ring but not through the threads so it goes out the vent.

If I had them in front of you it'd be easy to explain. I should try to find a nice illustration. Hard to make it make sense just in words if you haven't seen them much.

GreenStang

Oh okay, makes sense. So when I tried to pressure test it I just had the incorrect cap. The cap I was using screwed on the threads of the expansion tank fine, but I guess it didn't have the seal to seal off the vent. That makes perfect sense. I wish someone would have chimed in a long time ago with this back when I rented a pressure tester and tried to pressure test the car and mentioned that this vent in the expansion tank wasn't allowing it to build any pressure lol.


ItalianJoe, I understand completely what you're saying. This cap doesn't allow pressure to escape past the threads (out of the top of the tank) rather it pops the valve once it hits (I believe 16psi on our cars) and allows the pressure to escape via the vent once the valve has been tripped. The cap I was using in the kit has a spring like the old style, not a valve. So I don't believe it was configured to work correctly with the expansion tank on our cars due to it was not blocking the vent on the expansion tank to allow me to build pressure in the cooling system.

ItalianJoe1

iTrader: (10)

The design is the same despite the different shape. Picture the adapter being wrong and not sealing at the bottom seal, only the top. Happens all the time with these new coolant tanks with strange caps. You need a set with 50 adapters to fit all of them, and there just isn't a cost effective option.

The kit they rent at Advance auto will work though, I bought one for use at work.

GreenStang

Do you have the kit # for that kit at Advance Auto so I can see if they have one available at my local Advance Auto?


Thanks