Seal on Slave Cylinder
11-01-2013, 07:59 PM
#26
By start over, you mean reinstall a new TOB, clutch pipe, and what? Pry bar? How is that going to help me? There's no way to bleed this all the way without reinstalling a new one? Does this mean it's broken? Too many questions.. Kind of lost on this now, I've never had a problem with a clutch job before and this is my third one :/
" when my brother pulled the elbow off when we were disassembling, he never turned it and broke half of the seal off. "
well. what else?
I mean take it apart and figure out whats wrong. sad to say.
Last edited by Powell Race Parts; 11-01-2013 at 08:58 PM.
11-01-2013, 08:28 PM
#27
I have had one bad TOB in all the years (2004 on) with Cobalts. It was this year. We determined the seal was hard, and it took about 100 psi to make it "pop" and seal and clearly its impossible to build enough pressure hydraulically if there is air in the system to bleed it enough to make it pop it wont let you.
so now i qualify each TOB and Tom knows how to do this. Hold the TOB in one hand compress it with that hand and introduce air pressure litely at the clutch pipe port in the housing. Immediately it sees ANY pressure it will move out in your hand.
IF it doesnt, and the more pressure you put to it, and it still doesnt move, it will probably "pop" and move out at about 80 or more psi. That is a defective TOB.
There are two seals on a TOB. One is the internal one I described, it can only be accessed through cutting the lip stop off the center sleeve. Ruining the TOB> dont do this.
ground the center tube to take it apart.
this main internal TOB seal even though it has been covered in assembly grease by the Checkoslovakia vendor, is hard and wont seal.
Here is the input shaft seal and this part also has an outer o ring in the body. so the second seal is the input shaft seal visible on the back side. It has a coil spring steel band (blurred in this picture) around the seal lip and its easy to displace that spring fooling around with the TOB . If the coil spring is missing STOP dont install the TOB it will leak.
IF you install the trans and cant get it lined up right and the trans wont go on enough DO NOT START BOLTS IN THE BELLHOUSING AND RUN IT UP THAT WAY. you will wreck it.
IF you install the clutch, make sure the disc is centered with a centering tool then install the cover inserting the pilot dowels in the appropriate cover holes. DO NOT SIT THE COVER OVER THE DOWELS.
you MUST center the GMMP clutch cover, which is an LNF COVER same thing a SACHS cover, when installing it on an LSJ FLYWHEEL as the DOWELS ARE SMALLER THAN THE PILOT HOLES IN THE COVER. Therefore the cover can be installed off center slightly which is not good. Guys like myself and Italian Joe who do this for a living, machine little sleeves for the LSJ flywheel dowels, so we can get the job done easily with out dicking with it.
DO NOT let the transmission hang by the input shaft on the clutch when installing it. You will damage the clutch cover. This may have happened to the OP and when the cover diaphragm fingers are distorted by this noise and destruction follows.
If you are installing the trans in your driveway on your back, ( I haVe done this) use a jack to support the trans. IF it doesnt slide in right away, take it back out, check the clutch disc alignment with the clutch tool and start over. Done RIGHT IT WILL... SLIDE ...RIGHT... IN. YUP.... just like a mature ************************* ....
bleeding. WHAT CROCK THIS BENCH BLEEDING IS!
yOU CANT. why? Because you cant seal it, THEN build pressure THEN remove the lines unsealing it, to install. Its not possible. UGH!
HERE are the tips. Once the trans is bolted to the engine, before you do anything else, put any other single part on the car, assemble the hydraulics and bleed it. That way if you have to take it apart again you have but 7 bolts to undo to get to it.
other tips:
leave the rack attached to the steering shaft, detaching it from the cradle so you cant possibly turn the steering wheel 463 revolutions, accidentally and ruin the 175.00 clock spring for the air bag.
remove and replace the fill and drain plugs so you are not trying to break loose a frozen plug when the trans is re installed.
DO NOT remove the distribution block just remove and immediately cap the line from the master cylinder to the dist. block. That way you wont lose as much fluid and you wont have to dick with the block and the seal and all that with the trans in the car. Its way easier to do this out of the car.
USE A TORQUE WRENCH.
Heat the TOB bolts lightly to soften the lock tite so you dont strip the torx bolts in removal. They are soft and when broken are a pita to deal with. 89 inch pounds is the torque for assembly.
I am done for now.
so now i qualify each TOB and Tom knows how to do this. Hold the TOB in one hand compress it with that hand and introduce air pressure litely at the clutch pipe port in the housing. Immediately it sees ANY pressure it will move out in your hand.
IF it doesnt, and the more pressure you put to it, and it still doesnt move, it will probably "pop" and move out at about 80 or more psi. That is a defective TOB.
There are two seals on a TOB. One is the internal one I described, it can only be accessed through cutting the lip stop off the center sleeve. Ruining the TOB> dont do this.
ground the center tube to take it apart.
this main internal TOB seal even though it has been covered in assembly grease by the Checkoslovakia vendor, is hard and wont seal.
Here is the input shaft seal and this part also has an outer o ring in the body. so the second seal is the input shaft seal visible on the back side. It has a coil spring steel band (blurred in this picture) around the seal lip and its easy to displace that spring fooling around with the TOB . If the coil spring is missing STOP dont install the TOB it will leak.
IF you install the trans and cant get it lined up right and the trans wont go on enough DO NOT START BOLTS IN THE BELLHOUSING AND RUN IT UP THAT WAY. you will wreck it.
IF you install the clutch, make sure the disc is centered with a centering tool then install the cover inserting the pilot dowels in the appropriate cover holes. DO NOT SIT THE COVER OVER THE DOWELS.
you MUST center the GMMP clutch cover, which is an LNF COVER same thing a SACHS cover, when installing it on an LSJ FLYWHEEL as the DOWELS ARE SMALLER THAN THE PILOT HOLES IN THE COVER. Therefore the cover can be installed off center slightly which is not good. Guys like myself and Italian Joe who do this for a living, machine little sleeves for the LSJ flywheel dowels, so we can get the job done easily with out dicking with it.
DO NOT let the transmission hang by the input shaft on the clutch when installing it. You will damage the clutch cover. This may have happened to the OP and when the cover diaphragm fingers are distorted by this noise and destruction follows.
If you are installing the trans in your driveway on your back, ( I haVe done this) use a jack to support the trans. IF it doesnt slide in right away, take it back out, check the clutch disc alignment with the clutch tool and start over. Done RIGHT IT WILL... SLIDE ...RIGHT... IN. YUP.... just like a mature ************************* ....
bleeding. WHAT CROCK THIS BENCH BLEEDING IS!
yOU CANT. why? Because you cant seal it, THEN build pressure THEN remove the lines unsealing it, to install. Its not possible. UGH!
HERE are the tips. Once the trans is bolted to the engine, before you do anything else, put any other single part on the car, assemble the hydraulics and bleed it. That way if you have to take it apart again you have but 7 bolts to undo to get to it.
other tips:
leave the rack attached to the steering shaft, detaching it from the cradle so you cant possibly turn the steering wheel 463 revolutions, accidentally and ruin the 175.00 clock spring for the air bag.
remove and replace the fill and drain plugs so you are not trying to break loose a frozen plug when the trans is re installed.
DO NOT remove the distribution block just remove and immediately cap the line from the master cylinder to the dist. block. That way you wont lose as much fluid and you wont have to dick with the block and the seal and all that with the trans in the car. Its way easier to do this out of the car.
USE A TORQUE WRENCH.
Heat the TOB bolts lightly to soften the lock tite so you dont strip the torx bolts in removal. They are soft and when broken are a pita to deal with. 89 inch pounds is the torque for assembly.
I am done for now.
Last edited by Powell Race Parts; 11-01-2013 at 08:57 PM.
11-01-2013, 11:34 PM
#28
Lol the last part sounds like me explaining this job to all the locals that have attempted to do it themselves. Then after two weeks of having the car apart and taking the transmission out three times, they sheepishly tell me they wish they would have just paid me and got the car back the same day 
I try to be as helpful as possible but if you are not a SERIOUS mechanic and have not done this kind of work before, you have a very high chance of screwing it up. It's all simple stuff, but it's not really 'common sense', it's experience that makes it work easily the first time. I'd strongly suggest enlisting the help of someone who is more knowledgeable and READING WHAT POWELL POSTS ON THE ISSUE. He has put up some fantastic guides covering this topic (like the clutch pipe seal thing above) and they are super helpful if you are trying to learn to do this right the first time.
I try to be as helpful as possible but if you are not a SERIOUS mechanic and have not done this kind of work before, you have a very high chance of screwing it up. It's all simple stuff, but it's not really 'common sense', it's experience that makes it work easily the first time. I'd strongly suggest enlisting the help of someone who is more knowledgeable and READING WHAT POWELL POSTS ON THE ISSUE. He has put up some fantastic guides covering this topic (like the clutch pipe seal thing above) and they are super helpful if you are trying to learn to do this right the first time.
11-01-2013, 11:39 PM
#29
Kill city you said yourself that the distribution block was damaged . Another posted said by a pry bar. Apologies.
" when my brother pulled the elbow off when we were disassembling, he never turned it and broke half of the seal off. "
well. what else?
I mean take it apart and figure out whats wrong. sad to say.
" when my brother pulled the elbow off when we were disassembling, he never turned it and broke half of the seal off. "
well. what else?
I mean take it apart and figure out whats wrong. sad to say.
I have had one bad TOB in all the years (2004 on) with Cobalts. It was this year. We determined the seal was hard, and it took about 100 psi to make it "pop" and seal and clearly its impossible to build enough pressure hydraulically if there is air in the system to bleed it enough to make it pop it wont let you.
so now i qualify each TOB and Tom knows how to do this. Hold the TOB in one hand compress it with that hand and introduce air pressure litely at the clutch pipe port in the housing. Immediately it sees ANY pressure it will move out in your hand.
IF it doesnt, and the more pressure you put to it, and it still doesnt move, it will probably "pop" and move out at about 80 or more psi. That is a defective TOB.
There are two seals on a TOB. One is the internal one I described, it can only be accessed through cutting the lip stop off the center sleeve. Ruining the TOB> dont do this.
ground the center tube to take it apart.
this main internal TOB seal even though it has been covered in assembly grease by the Checkoslovakia vendor, is hard and wont seal.
Here is the input shaft seal and this part also has an outer o ring in the body. so the second seal is the input shaft seal visible on the back side. It has a coil spring steel band (blurred in this picture) around the seal lip and its easy to displace that spring fooling around with the TOB . If the coil spring is missing STOP dont install the TOB it will leak.
IF you install the trans and cant get it lined up right and the trans wont go on enough DO NOT START BOLTS IN THE BELLHOUSING AND RUN IT UP THAT WAY. you will wreck it.
IF you install the clutch, make sure the disc is centered with a centering tool then install the cover inserting the pilot dowels in the appropriate cover holes. DO NOT SIT THE COVER OVER THE DOWELS.
you MUST center the GMMP clutch cover, which is an LNF COVER same thing a SACHS cover, when installing it on an LSJ FLYWHEEL as the DOWELS ARE SMALLER THAN THE PILOT HOLES IN THE COVER. Therefore the cover can be installed off center slightly which is not good. Guys like myself and Italian Joe who do this for a living, machine little sleeves for the LSJ flywheel dowels, so we can get the job done easily with out dicking with it.
DO NOT let the transmission hang by the input shaft on the clutch when installing it. You will damage the clutch cover. This may have happened to the OP and when the cover diaphragm fingers are distorted by this noise and destruction follows.
If you are installing the trans in your driveway on your back, ( I haVe done this) use a jack to support the trans. IF it doesnt slide in right away, take it back out, check the clutch disc alignment with the clutch tool and start over. Done RIGHT IT WILL... SLIDE ...RIGHT... IN. YUP.... just like a mature ************************* ....
bleeding. WHAT CROCK THIS BENCH BLEEDING IS!
yOU CANT. why? Because you cant seal it, THEN build pressure THEN remove the lines unsealing it, to install. Its not possible. UGH!
HERE are the tips. Once the trans is bolted to the engine, before you do anything else, put any other single part on the car, assemble the hydraulics and bleed it. That way if you have to take it apart again you have but 7 bolts to undo to get to it.
other tips:
leave the rack attached to the steering shaft, detaching it from the cradle so you cant possibly turn the steering wheel 463 revolutions, accidentally and ruin the 175.00 clock spring for the air bag.
remove and replace the fill and drain plugs so you are not trying to break loose a frozen plug when the trans is re installed.
DO NOT remove the distribution block just remove and immediately cap the line from the master cylinder to the dist. block. That way you wont lose as much fluid and you wont have to dick with the block and the seal and all that with the trans in the car. Its way easier to do this out of the car.
USE A TORQUE WRENCH.
Heat the TOB bolts lightly to soften the lock tite so you dont strip the torx bolts in removal. They are soft and when broken are a pita to deal with. 89 inch pounds is the torque for assembly.
I am done for now.
so now i qualify each TOB and Tom knows how to do this. Hold the TOB in one hand compress it with that hand and introduce air pressure litely at the clutch pipe port in the housing. Immediately it sees ANY pressure it will move out in your hand.
IF it doesnt, and the more pressure you put to it, and it still doesnt move, it will probably "pop" and move out at about 80 or more psi. That is a defective TOB.
There are two seals on a TOB. One is the internal one I described, it can only be accessed through cutting the lip stop off the center sleeve. Ruining the TOB> dont do this.
ground the center tube to take it apart.
this main internal TOB seal even though it has been covered in assembly grease by the Checkoslovakia vendor, is hard and wont seal.
Here is the input shaft seal and this part also has an outer o ring in the body. so the second seal is the input shaft seal visible on the back side. It has a coil spring steel band (blurred in this picture) around the seal lip and its easy to displace that spring fooling around with the TOB . If the coil spring is missing STOP dont install the TOB it will leak.
IF you install the trans and cant get it lined up right and the trans wont go on enough DO NOT START BOLTS IN THE BELLHOUSING AND RUN IT UP THAT WAY. you will wreck it.
IF you install the clutch, make sure the disc is centered with a centering tool then install the cover inserting the pilot dowels in the appropriate cover holes. DO NOT SIT THE COVER OVER THE DOWELS.
you MUST center the GMMP clutch cover, which is an LNF COVER same thing a SACHS cover, when installing it on an LSJ FLYWHEEL as the DOWELS ARE SMALLER THAN THE PILOT HOLES IN THE COVER. Therefore the cover can be installed off center slightly which is not good. Guys like myself and Italian Joe who do this for a living, machine little sleeves for the LSJ flywheel dowels, so we can get the job done easily with out dicking with it.
DO NOT let the transmission hang by the input shaft on the clutch when installing it. You will damage the clutch cover. This may have happened to the OP and when the cover diaphragm fingers are distorted by this noise and destruction follows.
If you are installing the trans in your driveway on your back, ( I haVe done this) use a jack to support the trans. IF it doesnt slide in right away, take it back out, check the clutch disc alignment with the clutch tool and start over. Done RIGHT IT WILL... SLIDE ...RIGHT... IN. YUP.... just like a mature ************************* ....
bleeding. WHAT CROCK THIS BENCH BLEEDING IS!
yOU CANT. why? Because you cant seal it, THEN build pressure THEN remove the lines unsealing it, to install. Its not possible. UGH!
HERE are the tips. Once the trans is bolted to the engine, before you do anything else, put any other single part on the car, assemble the hydraulics and bleed it. That way if you have to take it apart again you have but 7 bolts to undo to get to it.
other tips:
leave the rack attached to the steering shaft, detaching it from the cradle so you cant possibly turn the steering wheel 463 revolutions, accidentally and ruin the 175.00 clock spring for the air bag.
remove and replace the fill and drain plugs so you are not trying to break loose a frozen plug when the trans is re installed.
DO NOT remove the distribution block just remove and immediately cap the line from the master cylinder to the dist. block. That way you wont lose as much fluid and you wont have to dick with the block and the seal and all that with the trans in the car. Its way easier to do this out of the car.
USE A TORQUE WRENCH.
Heat the TOB bolts lightly to soften the lock tite so you dont strip the torx bolts in removal. They are soft and when broken are a pita to deal with. 89 inch pounds is the torque for assembly.
I am done for now.
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