1st real kill 07 ss/sc vs 06 civic si
03-13-2007, 07:17 PM
#55
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To reiterate... Ultimately, all that matters is horsepower, specifically horsepower under the curve in the rpm range you race in. It really doesn't matter HOW you get that horsepower, whether it's lots of torque and fewer rpms or whether it's relatively little torque, but lots of rpm... doesn't really matter... horsepower is horsepower.
Hmmm. You are wrong. If you build the engine for torque you will get the Hp. But if you build it for horsepower you wont get the torque. To different Things. Torque is how much force you have to make the wheels spin horsepower is how fast you can go.
03-13-2007, 07:38 PM
#56
Torque is the force that starts the rotation, horsepower is how much the wheel can rotate in a given amount of time.
Without enough torque, horsepower's meaningfulness is diminished.
As an example:
Car A has 150lb-ft of torque, and 200hp.
Car B has 200lb-ft of torque, and 200hp.
Car B has more initial force rotating its (front) wheels, thus it will get the jump off the line.
Since both Car A and Car B have 200hp (wheels rotating the same amount in the same amount of time), Car B will always win the race if all other (and there are many) variables remain constant.
This is why some say the SS S/C vs Civic Si or RSX Type-S is a drivers race, because driver skill is never a constant. If one of the drivers messes up while the cars are already in motion, it can skew the results. SS S/C would win by a larger margin if the Civic driver screws up, or the Civic will inch out the SS S/C if the Cobalt driver screws up.
03-13-2007, 08:30 PM
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Here is something I want to ask you, let's take driver error out of the mix and put in an auto...Now what is a torque converter ???
More to come on this later...
03-14-2007, 01:10 AM
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You're overgeneralizing high torque engines vs. low torque engines.
The truth is, HP = TQ * RPM / 5252, and it doesn't matter how you get there, whether you use TQ, RPM, or both, horsepower is what matters.
Sometimes when you're "building an engine for horsepower," you can make the same amount of hp with lots of torque and less rpm OR you can build a high-revving lower-torque motor. You are not limited to either option.
Now, I think this may help clear up where some of you are disagreeing with me...
Engine's with higher peak tq GENERALLY have broader horsepower curves (powerbands) and therefore have more hp under the curve than a car with the same peak horsepower and less tq. Generally. However, the point remains that the car with the most power under the curve in the racing rpm is going to be the faster car. It just so happens that higher peak tq, often coincides with a broader powerband... but not always.
Also, here's a thread where a few guys on here were talking about this subject quite in depth...
https://www.cobaltss.net/forums/show...ighlight=s2000
Maybe that will explain a little better where I'm coming from as well.
YES.
Torque is the force that starts the rotation, horsepower is how much the wheel can rotate in a given amount of time.
Without enough torque, horsepower's meaningfulness is diminished.
As an example:
Car A has 150lb-ft of torque, and 200hp.
Car B has 200lb-ft of torque, and 200hp.
Car B has more initial force rotating its (front) wheels, thus it will get the jump off the line.
Since both Car A and Car B have 200hp (wheels rotating the same amount in the same amount of time), Car B will always win the race if all other (and there are many) variables remain constant.
This is why some say the SS S/C vs Civic Si or RSX Type-S is a drivers race, because driver skill is never a constant. If one of the drivers messes up while the cars are already in motion, it can skew the results. SS S/C would win by a larger margin if the Civic driver screws up, or the Civic will inch out the SS S/C if the Cobalt driver screws up.
Torque is the force that starts the rotation, horsepower is how much the wheel can rotate in a given amount of time.
Without enough torque, horsepower's meaningfulness is diminished.
As an example:
Car A has 150lb-ft of torque, and 200hp.
Car B has 200lb-ft of torque, and 200hp.
Car B has more initial force rotating its (front) wheels, thus it will get the jump off the line.
Since both Car A and Car B have 200hp (wheels rotating the same amount in the same amount of time), Car B will always win the race if all other (and there are many) variables remain constant.
This is why some say the SS S/C vs Civic Si or RSX Type-S is a drivers race, because driver skill is never a constant. If one of the drivers messes up while the cars are already in motion, it can skew the results. SS S/C would win by a larger margin if the Civic driver screws up, or the Civic will inch out the SS S/C if the Cobalt driver screws up.
I know that's going to send some people right over the edge
Essentially, a turbine spun by the engine spins in a fluid that transfers energy to another turbine which is connected to the rest of the drivetrain.
03-14-2007, 05:34 AM
#61
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This is like the 2nd or 3rd thread where everyone takes this HP and Torque comparison out of control. The thread went from a kill to physics. You may as well stop explaining because people are gonna believe what they want to believe reguardless of how much education you give them.
03-14-2007, 09:53 AM
#62
Because car A has less peak tq, it is likely that it will need more RPM's to make equal horsepower. So, it is completely possible that all that has happened is that Car A's powerband has moved up in the RPM range and is actually very similar to Car B. If this is the case, if Car A simply launches and races in that higher-rpm powerband and is therefore making equal horsepower, the cars will be equally fast at every point in the race, and they will simply tie at the end.
I know that's going to send some people right over the edge
I know that's going to send some people right over the edge
03-14-2007, 10:36 AM
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I think we're on similar pages overall, actually.
Like I said, horsepower is what ultimately matters because it takes into account torque AND rpm, but in general, if two cars have similar hp, the one with more torque is likely to have a broader, more useable powerband, and will therefore have more area under the hp curve and be the faster car if all else is equal. However, becaue there can certainly be exceptions where more torque doesn't necessarily mean more power under the curve, it is ultimately correct to say that horsepower is what really matters, and torque is just part of the equation for getting there.
So, like I said, I think we may be closer to agreement than it may have seemed a few posts ago... hopefully
03-14-2007, 08:38 PM
#65
WOW. lol
What are the chances.
Coming home from work today I encountered a black Civic Si at a stop light. First one I've had in this situation (other times have been from a roll and inconsistent).
He wanted to go, so we went. The only other K-series engine I had raced before was my buddies RSX Type-S, and he actually beat me (I hadnt owned the car long and didn't want to launch it :P), so I was expecting a challenge.
NOPE, We took off, and as I heard the Si's engine howling that awesome VTEC howl, I watched him fall back into my rear view mirror. Once I had let off, he caught up and rode my bumper for a bit then split off.
First thing I thought of was this thread. lol
What are the chances.
Coming home from work today I encountered a black Civic Si at a stop light. First one I've had in this situation (other times have been from a roll and inconsistent).
He wanted to go, so we went. The only other K-series engine I had raced before was my buddies RSX Type-S, and he actually beat me (I hadnt owned the car long and didn't want to launch it :P), so I was expecting a challenge.
NOPE, We took off, and as I heard the Si's engine howling that awesome VTEC howl, I watched him fall back into my rear view mirror. Once I had let off, he caught up and rode my bumper for a bit then split off.
First thing I thought of was this thread. lol
03-14-2007, 08:57 PM
#66
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the other side of it is, the Si is probably the only other car in the cobalt's range that can put up a good fight on a race track... i'd like to see an SS/SC G85 and a Si do some hot laps on a road course... that would be hot.
03-14-2007, 09:05 PM
#67
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo987X-Au48 PLEASE WATCH THAT
Go 2 minutes 46 seconds into it, they compare the same car, one diesel, the other gas. The vxr gas is 240 hp dont know tq...diesel is 196 hp dont know tq, but more tq than the gas for sure, and just watch
Go 2 minutes 46 seconds into it, they compare the same car, one diesel, the other gas. The vxr gas is 240 hp dont know tq...diesel is 196 hp dont know tq, but more tq than the gas for sure, and just watch
03-15-2007, 03:35 AM
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I'd like to run a new Si...although I don't think it'd be much of a race
my buddies 02 RSX doesn't put up much of a fight. I'm starting to think that lack of torque actually gives those cars an advantage off the line. They can spin the tires slightly and take it up to 8K while I'm spinng entirely through 1st gear and slightly in 2nd...
Wish I could wind this baby out to 8K...nitrous from 3K to 7800K would be sex!
my buddies 02 RSX doesn't put up much of a fight. I'm starting to think that lack of torque actually gives those cars an advantage off the line. They can spin the tires slightly and take it up to 8K while I'm spinng entirely through 1st gear and slightly in 2nd...
Wish I could wind this baby out to 8K...nitrous from 3K to 7800K would be sex!
03-15-2007, 04:04 AM
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Take no offense to this remark!... Man my neighbors tricycle has more torque then any Civic, unless its a modded Civic, so an s/c versus a stock Si of any kind is not a race people.. Its just embarrassing to Honda!! Damn company has no clue what torque is anymore
03-15-2007, 06:42 AM
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Sorry been off for a few days but You are correct and it is essentially a TORQUE MULTIPLIER and by increasing the STR (Stall Torque Ratio) you can effectively increase the torque mostly from a stop to launch harder ( that's how all those autos launch so hard off the line)...Yes you can increase the RPM's that you launch at (stall converter) but if the STR is not increased then it becomes inefficent (sp.)...Sorry I'm in a hurry here to get to work but that's a quick run down...
03-15-2007, 02:00 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo987X-Au48 PLEASE WATCH THAT
Go 2 minutes 46 seconds into it, they compare the same car, one diesel, the other gas. The vxr gas is 240 hp dont know tq...diesel is 196 hp dont know tq, but more tq than the gas for sure, and just watch
Go 2 minutes 46 seconds into it, they compare the same car, one diesel, the other gas. The vxr gas is 240 hp dont know tq...diesel is 196 hp dont know tq, but more tq than the gas for sure, and just watch
Like I've been saying, massive torque isn't necessary to make good horsepower and therefore, to have a quick car. However, whether you're making a lot of tq or not, you've got to keep the car in the meat of it's horsepower curve, and if you don't, you're not going to do well.
Because the Si has relatively little torque, if it tries to accelerate from a stop @ 2,000 rpm or something, it's not multiplying that little torque by much, and it is going to be slow off the line. However, someone who knows what they're doing is going to rev the thing up to 5,000 or whatever, and slip the clutch from there... where they are multiplying that little torque by a lot of rpms to make decent power.
Again, horsepower is horspower whether you get it from TQ x little rpm, RPM x little tq, or somewhere in between.
03-15-2007, 02:07 PM
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Actually, when you're making 600tq, you're still making 300whp @ ~2626rpm, so that's not too shabby, and what makes diesels fast is that they don't have peaky horsepower curves like many other vehicles do.
Take a look at this dynosheet from a diesel F-series...
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2474...63062029HeUyUG
Notice how the Horsepower curve stays virtually completely flat for almost half the chart, especially the blue one, and holds it's peak horsepower that entire time. While the peak hp numbers aren't amazing, the area under the curve is actually much higher than many other vehicles with higher "peak" hp values.
Take for instance, this S2000.
http://www.vtec.net/articles/article...2k_aem0804.gif
Notice how the horsepower peaks at over 200whp, but the horsepower drops off sharply on each side of that peak. Therefore, the area under the curve is much, much less than a Diesel making a peak of 200whp and holding it for the entire racing rpm range.
Take a look at this dynosheet from a diesel F-series...
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2474...63062029HeUyUG
Notice how the Horsepower curve stays virtually completely flat for almost half the chart, especially the blue one, and holds it's peak horsepower that entire time. While the peak hp numbers aren't amazing, the area under the curve is actually much higher than many other vehicles with higher "peak" hp values.
Take for instance, this S2000.
http://www.vtec.net/articles/article...2k_aem0804.gif
Notice how the horsepower peaks at over 200whp, but the horsepower drops off sharply on each side of that peak. Therefore, the area under the curve is much, much less than a Diesel making a peak of 200whp and holding it for the entire racing rpm range.
HOW ABOUT I DONT WANNA LOOK AT ****!!
HAHA JK I DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT JUST GETTIN ANNOYING
03-15-2007, 03:29 PM
#75
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