Originally Posted by cawpin

The only part of drivetrain loss that is Thermo is in an automatic transmission. The rest is simple dynamics.

Thermodynamics involves movement of fluids, be they gas or liquid. Stop trying to sound smart.

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

ok how many times to i have to spell this out for you guys? WHEEL HORSEPOWER IS AFTER THE DRIVETRAIN POWER LOSS! I AM SAYING IF YOU LOOK AT THE 300 HORSEPOWER CARS ON THE MARKET THAT ARE NOT AWD, MOST OF THEM WILL RAPE STI'S AND EVOS FROM A ROLL. whp is whp, it doesn't matter what kind of drivetrain they have they are putting down the SAME power. crank horsepower on the other hand will be slightly dropped throughout the drivetrain into heat. Since there are far more components and rotating mass in an awd drivetrain, alot more power is lost before it makes it to the wheels. Case in point- the 03ish wrx's made what 227chp? they put like 170 to the wheels or something like that. that is ALOT of drivetrain power loss. Then look at my car. Puts around 185-190 to the wheels with 210chp. There are alot of different factors, but mainly it is because of less drivetrain power loss, and from a roll if gearing and weight are close enough, 15-20 whp will make a pretty decent difference. Stop talking about wheel horsepower numbers when we are discussing drivetrain power loss, it totally eliminates the point of looking at drivetrain power loss in the first place. You know what those 600whp evos are putting out that the crank? probably around 750. You know what a rwd car making 600whp is putting out at the crank? Probably around 700. from a roll with all else being equal they should run side by side, but equal out those crank numbers and BOOM rwd blows the **** out of that awd car cause it probably is putting down a good 50-60 less whp.

Originally Posted by evolve

awd cars(ie evo/sti) lack top end when stock. I say its the turbo, and 8cd03gro says its the AWD drivetrain.

Originally Posted by evolve

awd cars(ie evo/sti) lack top end when stock. I say its the turbo, and 8cd03gro says its the AWD drivetrain.

Originally Posted by evolve

awd cars(ie evo/sti) lack top end when stock. I say its the turbo, and 8cd03gro says its the AWD drivetrain.

Originally Posted by Darksun

Since i believe with a bigger turbo the drive train lost isn't that noticable. I will have to say i side more with the smaller turbo idea. But...... Stock eveo 9's turbos arent really that small for the size motor there pared up with compared to like an sti or srt-4. I think the reason an srt-4 does so good from a roll is not only cause its fwd but also because the extra displacment plus its the lightest of the group. thats why such a small stock turbo isn't holding it back. I think sti's have the smallest turbo of the group too if im not mistaken?

Originally Posted by evolve

Lol, I was just about to type that!(ok, something like it)

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

ok how many times to i have to spell this out for you guys? WHEEL HORSEPOWER IS AFTER THE DRIVETRAIN POWER LOSS! I AM SAYING IF YOU LOOK AT THE 300 HORSEPOWER CARS ON THE MARKET THAT ARE NOT AWD, MOST OF THEM WILL RAPE STI'S AND EVOS FROM A ROLL. whp is whp, it doesn't matter what kind of drivetrain they have they are putting down the SAME power. crank horsepower on the other hand will be slightly dropped throughout the drivetrain into heat. Since there are far more components and rotating mass in an awd drivetrain, alot more power is lost before it makes it to the wheels. Case in point- the 03ish wrx's made what 227chp? they put like 170 to the wheels or something like that. that is ALOT of drivetrain power loss. Then look at my car. Puts around 185-190 to the wheels with 210chp. There are alot of different factors, but mainly it is because of less drivetrain power loss, and from a roll if gearing and weight are close enough, 15-20 whp will make a pretty decent difference. Stop talking about wheel horsepower numbers when we are discussing drivetrain power loss, it totally eliminates the point of looking at drivetrain power loss in the first place. You know what those 600whp evos are putting out that the crank? probably around 750. You know what a rwd car making 600whp is putting out at the crank? Probably around 700. from a roll with all else being equal they should run side by side, but equal out those crank numbers and BOOM rwd blows the **** out of that awd car cause it probably is putting down a good 50-60 less whp.

Originally Posted by the1&only

We were talking about STOCK STI/EVO8s which put down around 240 PEAK whp and modded Cobalts that are making around the same power being able to win. In this scenario AWD vs FWD has nothing to do with it. The reason the Cobalt can win in this scenario is because it makes power all the way up to redline and has better gearing compared to the STI especially.

Originally Posted by dennyt4

While I find this entire argument a joke because people keep talking out of their ass, you ALMOST had me on your side until you gave your reason as to why the Cobalt will win. Equal wheel horsepower on a rolling start race with "twins" driving the cars would result in a Cobalt win due to weight, not because the SS makes power all the way to redline. Do you honestly make this statement thinking the Evo magically runs out of power up top? C'mon!

The whole drivetrain loss excuse is BS because you should be talking in terms of WHP and torque (which has less involvment in a rolling race, but still there). This heat loss and thermodynamics that people have started throwing around are going to account for so little AFTER taking WHP into consideration that it's not worth bringing up.

Stock Evo is really de-tuned. That may sound stupid, but no more so than the "GM waaaaaaaaaay under-rated these cars" excuse. Open up the exhaust and put a boost controller in to hold the boost, and a flash of the ECU - do nothing with the AWD - and then come talk to me about losing it top end because of the AWD. Simple fact is a turbo - ANY TURBO - can only flow a certain amount of air and THAT is when the car will run out of top end.

OK, return to the stuipid argument now

Originally Posted by the1&only

Honestly I am speaking more in line with the STI, its horsepower starts to drop off in the higher RPMs pretty bad, I have not looked at too many stock EVO8 dynos. I agree with you about the weight but the power drop off and gearing play the biggest parts.

Originally Posted by dennyt4

But that's my point - the power drop off does not come from the AWD...be it an Evo 8, 9, or STi...the problem is the turbo. I had an 05 STi, and it does have a smaller turbo which is why it is so noticeable up top. It is also heavier than the others. You put a bigger turbo - even one size larger - on the STi with that nice 2.5 engine and there will be no power drop up top.

Originally Posted by the1&only

That was my point too.

Originally Posted by Darksun

Glad you guys are seeing eye to eye now. So we three agree that AWD in our opinion does not affect an AWD cars top end or roll race abilty as much as people would believe?

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Thermo means heat dip ****.

did you mean FLUID dynamics perhaps? wow you truly are intelligent!

GO BACK TO HIGH SCHOOL.

Originally Posted by cawpin

Really? Thermo means heat? Wow. you really taught me. Fluid dynamics is the movements of fluids assuming no loss. It is the purely mechanical motion of the fluid. Thermo accounts for these losses through friction, which dissipates as heat. Now, I'll give you a point for making me think about it. The whole drivetrain involves friction loss, so I guess it could considered thermo if you want to account for the heat loss and not just the straight loss through friction.

You shouldn't tell people to go back to high school if you don't know who they are and what they do.

Originally Posted by dennyt4

Absolutely - but you have to talk in terms of wheel horsepower. Put it this way...If I am AWD and have a 400 horsepower engine, my wheel horsepower is probably going to be in the 320 range. A cobalt w/ 400 horsepower at the engine will theoretically have 340-360 wheel horsepower...THAT is where the AWD loss comes in - engine to wheel. When the cars come off the dyno with equal wheel horsepower, I am not going to lose more up top because of AWD. Make sense?

I'm not saying AWD doesn't lose more HP from the engine to the wheels, I'm just saying that AWD wheel horsepower is not slower than rear or front wheel horsepower

Originally Posted by cawpin

Really? Thermo means heat? Wow. you really taught me. Fluid dynamics is the movements of fluids assuming no loss. It is the purely mechanical motion of the fluid. Thermo accounts for these losses through friction, which dissipates as heat. Now, I'll give you a point for making me think about it. The whole drivetrain involves friction loss, so I guess it could considered thermo if you want to account for the heat loss and not just the straight loss through friction.

You shouldn't tell people to go back to high school if you don't know who they are and what they do.

Originally Posted by dennyt4

Absolutely - but you have to talk in terms of wheel horsepower. Put it this way...If I am AWD and have a 400 horsepower engine, my wheel horsepower is probably going to be in the 320 range. A cobalt w/ 400 horsepower at the engine will theoretically have 340-360 wheel horsepower...THAT is where the AWD loss comes in - engine to wheel. When the cars come off the dyno with equal wheel horsepower, I am not going to lose more up top because of AWD. Make sense?

I'm not saying AWD doesn't lose more HP from the engine to the wheels, I'm just saying that AWD wheel horsepower is not slower than rear or front wheel horsepower

Originally Posted by evolve

I gave this arguement up a while ago.

Originally Posted by evolve

Anyway, Im jealous of your car (J/K!!!)

Originally Posted by dennyt4

Here's one of me vs. a buddy's IX (I'm the black one )

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VhFnlDUwKBY

Originally Posted by Antyoo

im not impressed, my WRX can do that to a stock IX too

JK. but seriously, i put a hurting on a IX about a month ago, from 60mph and 80mph rolls it really bruised his ego too.

Originally Posted by an0malous

stop now before you make yourself look any stupider.


ther·mo·dy·nam·ics
/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[thur-moh-dahy-nam-iks] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun (used with a singular verb) the science concerned with the relations between heat and mechanical energy or work, and the conversion of one into the other: modern thermodynamics deals with the properties of systems for the description of which temperature is a necessary coordinate.