3fo893013L

I must have not gotten that memo again... damnit.

Area47

it also had the revised TPS cover sheet as well

cakeeater

well by looking at the war stories section, i was under the impression everything lost to cobalts...

FNFAST

Untrue...read the posts...we only exaggerate that we win...everyone calls us out on it.

Again, a moddified car with a FI putting out close to the same WHP as a car that weighs 600+lbs more...shiish...theres no way we could even come close...especially considering that drivers have nothing to do with the out come... I mean... you could go as far as to not even have a driver in the GTO...just leave it parked with the keys in the ignition and it would still win...by "10 buslengths"

I mean...a cobalt getting into the 12's? Come on now...that will never happen...I would like to see it! (from outside my car I mean )

I once heard that money is a great substitute for ego.


Money > Ego = Truth


No harm in money playing it's part..big deal...a cobalt with 4 grand in mods beats a GTO with minor mods...big deal.

Put 4 grand in the GTO for a H/C Package...conversation over...not sure why you guys get so defensive over a modded car handing it to you?

Granted there are those that are FOS, but not everyone..yet EVERY Cobalt VS any car with an LSx motor is BS.

Your right...we need the reality check.

cakeeater

no i agree some of these are realistic, but some of the war stories i have seen are just ridiculous. the LSx mindset on most forums is it can't be beat. Alot of owners don't think that way but it seems there are more lsx owners that do think that way than most other types of cars. not to say that isn't for a reason because the ls series engines are some of the best, but it does get annoying.

FNFAST

I 100% agree with you. "Yeah my stage 2 cobalt walked this LS2 GTO."

yep...and next...why don't you tell us the story about the time you and bigfoot went to the dragstrip together.

I certainly hear you man.

Again...you are 100% right. I think that if ANYONE said the LSx motors are crap or even just said they are "good"...they really need to do some research. The motor in general was a break through and named one of the top ten when it came out. And it's still being revamped LS1 to the LS2 to the LS3...I mean there is an obvious reason that chevy uses them for all of their MAJOR competitors...because it is just a great motor. Period. Especially because of the modification potential...they are pretty crazy.

cakeeater

yep, GM did right with the ls1 f-bodies. I just wish the terminators had come out in 00-01 or earlier so they could have been a direct competitor with the ls1 f-bodies on the street. More expensive yes, but it would have been real fun to see all the brand new termi's racing brand new ls1's all over the place. I think that would have fueled the fire more too and more would have sold on both sides. GM and Ford are kidding themselves if they are thinking the whole camaro mustang feud type deal doesn't help their sales. When the new camaro comes out some people are gonna be buying cobras and bosses/machs (supposedly one is coming with the 5.0 hurricane cammer ) just to compete with their neighbors new camaro. I am excited personally.

p7x

while the LS1 does its job very well, its a very simple and basic motor. While that has lead to its success and popularity, to carry on acting like the motor was handed down by god himself and can never be touched, which most to all LS1 owners do it seems, is narrow-minded. It's out-dated like the cars it sits in. You do have a point in the fact that the LS1 recipe did something right, leading to the production of the 2, 3, 6 and 7 LS engines.

JMO folks

Im just an, iphone instead of the zack morris phone, type of guy

FNFAST

Definitely P7, I agree. I'm certainly not saying the LS1 is the best motor built today, it is outdated. But is still a great motor due to it's reliability and the ease of which it is modded. I just meant that back in the day it was amazing and made headway for some great GM motors. After all...no one has more experience building a mouse than chevy.

It is certainly not an untouchable motor, I agree. The motor itself was introduced 10 years ago. Technology goes a VERY long way...I think some people forget that. I mean look at cars today...you have motors now with literally almost 1/3 the liters making close to or the same horsepower.

amxguy1970

One thing you have to remember about those motors that are making the power that is close to the LS motors with alot less displacement is that they are very high strung and don't have alot of extreme potential and reliability. The LS motors on the other hand are making their big power like its a sunday morning stroll through the park with its old lady and little dog molly in tow. Tyler

codyss

Just out of curiosity which engine has 1/3 the displacement of an LS1 and makes close to the same power?

Keep in mind a LS1 had 350HP & 360FtLbs

FNFAST

You should keep in mind that Ls1's had a varying amount of power...to pull 350 out of the hat and say they ALL had 350hp is a little optimistic. Are you talking Corvette? Camaro? GTO? Pretty generic to say "LS1's have 350hp"

When I dyno'd my 98 LS1 it had 310 motor horse since I dyno'd right about 270 at the wheels stock. I have also been a member on z28.com for over 4 years and out of the 24000 members they have... the highest stock LS1 dyno was 307 whp which is still not 350motor horse.

But not to get tic tac on the subject and keep it rolling in a discussion format.

The LancerEvolution 2.0 liter motor...in the UK where the motors are not Detuned on purpose like they are for the US, they have 405 motor horsepower. Even in the US they have 286 motor horse.

The Cobalt LSj motor sadly enough...has right around 260+ Motor horse stock which isn't far off.

The RX7 has a 1.6 liter motor with 286 horsepower.

I can keep going with a very long list of motors that have easily more HP than even the most powerful stock LS1's with half the displacement.

But I think you get my point. They are outdated. If they weren't chevy wouldn't feel the need to produce the LS2 or the LS3...they would continue to use the LS1.



I wouldn't completely diagree with you, however there are small motors out there that have great reliability with exceptional HP numbers.

When it comes to potential..unless you are buildinga straight up drag car...you can make a smaller displacement motored car move every bit as fast as a bigger motor car...you have less weight so the requirement to make EXACLTY the same hp isn't needed.

A car that weighs half as much only needs half the horsepower to be as fast. Look at the Lotus Elise...the car produces, what, 190HP, yet it is every bit as fast as most of the V-8 cars on the market. It has a 4.1 second 0-60 (the supercharged version has 230 hp and 3.9 0-60) ...not even the LS2 corvettes are this fast.

And before we get into the discussion on what a LS1 motor can hold...consider that a 1.8 liter naturally aspirated Lotus motor makes 105 HP per liter compare to the Z28 Ls1's 54hp per liter. So the camaro would make over 600 horsepower if it had the same HP as the lotus. Why didn't they make the LS1 600hp? Becuase it's reliability would have suffered every bit as much as any of the smaller cars...which most now days offer 100K warranties, so they can't be that high strung. Chevy needs an LS3 with a supercharger (new vette) to make as much displacement stock as a Naturally aspirated Lotus. Probably with the same reliability as well.

Maybe it's Tic tac, but it goes to show that the LSx motors are not the god of all motors like everyone who owns one makes them out to be. Great motors Hell yes...break thru's..hell yes...the best motor anyone has ever seen...they are not...unbeatable...most certainly not.

p7x

"In 2000, several years before Mitsubishi rolled out its first Mivec turbo in the Evo VIII - Forge Racing crossbred the block of a 1.8 litre 4G93 turbo and the cylinder head of a 1.6 litre 4G92 Mivec. That resulting 1.8 engine output over 300hp at 8000rpm with a boost of only 1.5bar"

From that came:

2 FQ (340 and 400) variants of the 4g63, make the same or more bhp as the LS1 with 1/3 of the displacement give or take a 0.1L

Are you GTO fanbois done? cuz I can play this game all day

amxguy1970

If you can play this motor game all day, lets step up to say, 400HP. Then if we really want to get mean find a 500hp car with a 1/3 the motor and good reliability and modability. So far all I have seen listed is 300 hp motors boosted. Anything NA that small that is producing this HP you guys are talking about? Don't include very limited production models that are not dealered cars and are rare foregin cars or race cars. I bet most things that will produce the said numbers will be boosted and not like 8psi either, id imagine 12-13-14+.

About the elise, all the numbers I am seeing are mid-upper 13 second 1/4 mile times in the very low 100MPH traps, no where near a vette or even my GTO. Actually, one of my buddies who is a big mazda guy had one up at their meet and ran a couple of their cars, including a new speed3 that was stock and only beat it by about a car to a 100+ on the highway. I can destroy a 3 FYI.


Just curious to see what other motors make this power while lasting a say 100k+ miles minimum with a 1/3 displacement (roughly, doesn't have to be exact).

BTW about the LS1 dyno's, take 350 and multiply it by .85 (to give a generous 15% drivetrain loss for the manual cars, I have always heard 12-15%) and you get 297.5 rwhp. Yours is for sure low from what I have heard, the norm seems to be 300ish (+or-10hp)for those cars (and I am on all the big LS motor websites). I seem to recall a ford mustang magazine testing an SS that put down almost 320 at the wheels and ran the 1/4 in the high 12's stock? Most everyone knows now that regular stripper Z28's all the way to a highend LS1 vette put down about the same hp to the ground and would engine dyon around 350hp. Tyler

Edit, just looked to see what 1.5 bar of boost equals, 21.75 PSI??? Ya, like thats not alot. Combined with 8000 RPM, that is no reliable motor right thar, nor will it take a whole lot more HP easily either. How much boost was that 400hp version running? Just curious.

I saw one evo guy on here is running 32psi, OMG. Id say some of you four cylinder guys are dancing with the devil! I bet alot of boost requires higher octane gas as well? No daily pump fill ups at the local quickie mart for you guys with that boost levels? Don't flame me, just trying to inform my self more and these boosted little buggers. FYI, Tyler

tryit

Comparing a forced induction engine to a a n/a engine is stupid. Pluse 1.5 bar is a good amount of boost as well.

FNFAST

I disagree, but regardless, the comparison was between an engine with 1/3 less Liters than the LS1. FI or not is a moot point as FI is not always placed on a car for HP gains nowdays...they are placed on cars to increase fuel economy as well. There are plenty of cars with FI that don't put out good HP numbers.

Jetta TDI's are great examples of this concept, FI for fuel economy, not HP.

You can't even really say "oh yeah! well, slap a turbo on a 8 cylinder"...You have to look at compression ratio. If you were to put 17.5 psi on a stock LS1, the only place you would go in a hurry is to a autostore to by new motor parts. Of course at the same time you don't need as much boost either.

I guess my point is this:

A motor is a motor...some use FI some don't...some are 8 cylinders...some are 4..some don't even have cylinders. However you look at it...cars are getting faster with technology and most of the newer, faster cars have smaller motors...plain and simple...as someone with intelligence figured out...lighter is just as good as bigger...and you get better gas milage with lighter and Due to technology...you have cars that can put out huge numbers with little motors, reliably, that have great gas milage, and perform well/as good/ or better than a heavier car with a big motor.

Light cars and FI is the way of the future. Even the new corvette "muscle car" has shaved weight and introduced FI. It continues to drop weight and gave up the 427 in favor of the 350 again to due so. The proof is undeniable. Not saying v-8's aren't great or fast or nice...I would never say that..I love the GTO's and the Camaro's...I'm just saying that just because they have a big mean motor...doesn't mean they are faster than anything with a smaller motor. They are heavy and they are going up against a new breed of cars...fast, light, agile, and easily moddified...even for the kid with a emergency tool kit can do half of the mods on his car nowdays...lets see the average Joe put a H/C package on a Camaro with a sears rachet set...it aint gonna happen. I'm sorry.

No flaming man...I think the whole conversation is going good. I am even waiting for Cody SS to come back on and throw in his 2 cents. He's being civil and I would like his opinions too. No one needs to get bent out of shape...we are just conversing...not arguing.

This is a part of what I said before...you need 400 hp to try and move a 3700 lb the way a 300 hp is gonna move a 2700 lb car.

You don't need the little 1.8 liter to produce as much hp as the 6.0 liter car...coming close is more than sufficient to be competition when the car weighs an extreme amount less.

lsjwannabe

iTrader: (1)

i thought this thread was about my car beating another not ls1 vs all

FNFAST

Who care the PSI your pushing? If your motor can handle it, thats a great thing. Is a built drag car running 2400hp worth of nitrous "running with the devil"? Not if the motor is built for it...its called building a motor to meet specific tolerances. If your motor can handle 32 PSI...good for you..run it...and if it's built for it...it isn't going to affect reliability.

It is. and good kill.

Cody or someone start a thread we can finish talking it up.

Sorry LSJ..didn't mean to thread jack man.

lsjwannabe

iTrader: (1)

no its fine just trying to keep people on track so it doesn't turn into a war

p7x

cry me a river, he asked for an engine so I gave him one. The whole point of the previous comment I was supporting is that engine have gone toward more complex and inventive ways of making power ex valve control, electronic controlled fuel/engine management and forced induction.

FNFAST

Thats cool. Cody's being civil, so is AMX and P7x. But, we are getting off track.

Our bad

Darksun

It won't be long till the "I beat a 07 ZO6" Thread pops up. I can't wait..........

p7x

AMS's 8 sec EVO runs 42 PSI all day.

For some reason you v8 guys think forced induction isnt reliable. If the motor is built for it and heat is managed, aka built for it, they are just as reliable as an n/a engine.

go ahead and tell every TDI car out there that they are not reliable and wont last long

OK i'm done, sorry LSJwannabe

amxguy1970

Ok, back to your regular scheduled program (or forum topic!) Sorry LSJ

arng22

haha thats funny


about the topic i was at the strip a few weeks back and there was a mid 90's vette running 14.2-14.4@ 101-104 it seems sense able that a stage2 balt can keep with this..hell even some of the stock guys with driver mod have hit 14.0...will i need my flame suit? ill put it on anyway...

good run lsjw.