Dyno results and info on intakes
03-11-2009 | 06:35 PM
#1
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From: Grand Rapids, MI
Dyno results and info on intakes
We Are in the middle of the largest dyno testing we have ever done on a single vehicle. Every mod, every configuration, every option we can think of. All tests are run at least twice to ensure no flukes.
Anyway, we wanted to test our intake and a theoretical perfect intake to see what potential gains are. We picked up 8WHP with the ZZP 3" intake over stock and lost 1WHP with the injen over stock.
Test car was originally a stock 2006 cobalt. We tested it as received and then after wheel alignment. We picked up 4 WHP at 100mph from the alignment. We are using the after alignment results as all stock baselines. ECT was brought to 180 deg for all pulls.
Dyno for intakes was done with 2.8" pullley, 60# injectors, ZZP 1.0 PCM, NGK 4644 plugs .035 gap. Front end of car is open for easy access and part swapping and maximum cooling on the rollers. Air temps are ~50 deg in the bay. This test parameters will change depending on what were testing but for camparisons parameters will remain the same.
We then changed intakes to a 45 deg elbow, MAF tube, straight pipe and filter. We lost power over the ZZP intake. This made no sense and we later learned that the filter was smaller and caused the HP loss. Changing filter to the same K&N that the ZZP intake uses made that 'pefect intake produce about .5 more HP than the ZZP intake. We are currently leaning towards the filter being the restriction and feel that the injen would perform better with a larger filter. I'll update as we get more info.
Also interesting to note. When we ran the stock intake we found that not clamping down the boot to the throttle body, we could pickup a consistent 4WHP. This was due to the car running a little leaner and being able to get air without drawing it through the intake. Pretty crazy....
Anyway, we wanted to test our intake and a theoretical perfect intake to see what potential gains are. We picked up 8WHP with the ZZP 3" intake over stock and lost 1WHP with the injen over stock.
Test car was originally a stock 2006 cobalt. We tested it as received and then after wheel alignment. We picked up 4 WHP at 100mph from the alignment. We are using the after alignment results as all stock baselines. ECT was brought to 180 deg for all pulls.
Dyno for intakes was done with 2.8" pullley, 60# injectors, ZZP 1.0 PCM, NGK 4644 plugs .035 gap. Front end of car is open for easy access and part swapping and maximum cooling on the rollers. Air temps are ~50 deg in the bay. This test parameters will change depending on what were testing but for camparisons parameters will remain the same.
We then changed intakes to a 45 deg elbow, MAF tube, straight pipe and filter. We lost power over the ZZP intake. This made no sense and we later learned that the filter was smaller and caused the HP loss. Changing filter to the same K&N that the ZZP intake uses made that 'pefect intake produce about .5 more HP than the ZZP intake. We are currently leaning towards the filter being the restriction and feel that the injen would perform better with a larger filter. I'll update as we get more info.
Also interesting to note. When we ran the stock intake we found that not clamping down the boot to the throttle body, we could pickup a consistent 4WHP. This was due to the car running a little leaner and being able to get air without drawing it through the intake. Pretty crazy....
Last edited by Zooomer; 03-11-2009 at 07:02 PM.
03-11-2009 | 06:41 PM
#4
Joined: 08-27-07
Posts: 21,618
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From: Jacksonville, FL
Interesting, I didn't realize you guys were doing an intake as well. Is is 2.5" or 3"? Stainless or Aluminum? One piece or two piece design?
I found that interesting as well, it does make sense though.
I found that interesting as well, it does make sense though.
Last edited by Black SS/SC 06; 03-11-2009 at 06:41 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
03-11-2009 | 06:45 PM
#5
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From: minnesota
03-11-2009 | 06:48 PM
#6
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Joined: 12-28-05
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From: Birmingham, Alabama
We Are in the middle of the largest dyno testing we have ever done on a single vehicle. Every mod, every configuration, every option we can think of.
Anyway, we wanted to test our intake and a theoretical perfect intake to see what potential gains are. We picked up 8WHP with the ZZP intake over stock and lost 1WHP with the injen over stock.
[IMG]http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/CAI-stock-ZZP-Injen.jpg[IMG]
Test car was a stock 2006 cobalt. We tested it as received and then after wheel alignment. We picked up 4 WHP at 100mph from the alignment. We are using the after alignment results as all stock baselines.
Dyno for intakes was done with 2.8" pullley, 60# injectors, ZZP 1.0 PCM, NGK 4644 plugs .035 gap. Front end of car is open for easy access and part swapping and maximum cooling on the rollers. Air temps are ~50 deg in the bay. This test parameters will change depending on what were testing but for camparisons parameters will remain the same.
[IMG]http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_7410.jpg[IMG]
We then changed intakes to a 45 deg elbow, MAF tube, straight pipe and filter. We lost power over the ZZP intake. This made no sense and we later learned that the filter was smaller and caused the HP loss. Changing filter to the same K&N that the ZZP intake uses made that 'pefect intake produce about .5 more HP than the ZZP intake. We are currently leaning towards the filter being the restriction and feel that the injen would perform better with a larger filter. I'll update as we get more info.
Also interesting to note. When we ran the stock intake we found that not clamping down the boot to the throttle body, we could pickup a consistent 4WHP. This was due to the car running a little leaner and being able to get air without drawing it through the intake. Pretty crazy....
Anyway, we wanted to test our intake and a theoretical perfect intake to see what potential gains are. We picked up 8WHP with the ZZP intake over stock and lost 1WHP with the injen over stock.
[IMG]http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/CAI-stock-ZZP-Injen.jpg[IMG]
Test car was a stock 2006 cobalt. We tested it as received and then after wheel alignment. We picked up 4 WHP at 100mph from the alignment. We are using the after alignment results as all stock baselines.
Dyno for intakes was done with 2.8" pullley, 60# injectors, ZZP 1.0 PCM, NGK 4644 plugs .035 gap. Front end of car is open for easy access and part swapping and maximum cooling on the rollers. Air temps are ~50 deg in the bay. This test parameters will change depending on what were testing but for camparisons parameters will remain the same.
[IMG]http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/IMG_7410.jpg[IMG]
We then changed intakes to a 45 deg elbow, MAF tube, straight pipe and filter. We lost power over the ZZP intake. This made no sense and we later learned that the filter was smaller and caused the HP loss. Changing filter to the same K&N that the ZZP intake uses made that 'pefect intake produce about .5 more HP than the ZZP intake. We are currently leaning towards the filter being the restriction and feel that the injen would perform better with a larger filter. I'll update as we get more info.
Also interesting to note. When we ran the stock intake we found that not clamping down the boot to the throttle body, we could pickup a consistent 4WHP. This was due to the car running a little leaner and being able to get air without drawing it through the intake. Pretty crazy....
also wouldnt it only make sense that your intake performed better with your tune?
03-11-2009 | 06:55 PM
#9
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From: Birmingham, Alabama
really where??
i dont see an explanation anywhere in there...maybe im misunderstanding something...
i am not a nutswinger coming in here soley to bust ZZP to the ground...i was just wondering the 2 questions i asked...i thought they were reasonable questions
i dont see an explanation anywhere in there...maybe im misunderstanding something...
i am not a nutswinger coming in here soley to bust ZZP to the ground...i was just wondering the 2 questions i asked...i thought they were reasonable questions
03-11-2009 | 06:59 PM
#10
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What was interesting is that all 3 intakes had the exact same AF ratio on the dyno. This meant we didn't have to interpret AF ratios affect on HP. We were suprised, pleasantly.
No contradiction. Please reread. Any time you dyno a car you want a stock baseline but you have to establish what that 'stock' is. What ECT, what ambient temps, what gas, has ANYTHING been done to the car, etc. This is the only way to obtain precise data.
I didn't post the baseline dyno. We have already done about 100 dyno tests on this car. We've done spark plugs, PCMs, rev limiters, pulley sizes, intakes. We'll be doing dual pass, HE, TB, and lots of our own personal goodies shortly. I'll be posting more as we reach the topics but I was trying to keep this one about intakes. Here's the stock file vs. our 1.0 PCM.
Wheel alignment is nothing new. ZZP generally runs much, much faster than anyone else can with the same cars. This is done with highly specific testing and use of many small tools that add up to give us tremendous advantages over others. We regularly get acused of running nitrous, secret fuel, secret motors, etc. Truth is that we just take our time to obtain information that others overlook. Alignment is just one of dozens. Almost all the cars we've tested have had gains from alignment. The optimum alignment will change based on what you're doing, what kind of power you are making and if you have rubber or poly mounts. We did a standard toe alginment, we could probably get a bit more power from adjusting toe but that wouldn't be the kind of 'stock' we are looking for.
Soon we expect to be easily hitting 300WHP with the stock M62. Seems nearly impossible but take this alignment thing most people don't know about. That's one thing that gave 4HP. Some cars would be little or none. Add 20 little things like that each netting 1/2 a HP up to 4HP like this one. Add that to your dyno and it's easy to see how 300WHP comes quickly...
No contradiction. Please reread. Any time you dyno a car you want a stock baseline but you have to establish what that 'stock' is. What ECT, what ambient temps, what gas, has ANYTHING been done to the car, etc. This is the only way to obtain precise data.
I didn't post the baseline dyno. We have already done about 100 dyno tests on this car. We've done spark plugs, PCMs, rev limiters, pulley sizes, intakes. We'll be doing dual pass, HE, TB, and lots of our own personal goodies shortly. I'll be posting more as we reach the topics but I was trying to keep this one about intakes. Here's the stock file vs. our 1.0 PCM.
Wheel alignment is nothing new. ZZP generally runs much, much faster than anyone else can with the same cars. This is done with highly specific testing and use of many small tools that add up to give us tremendous advantages over others. We regularly get acused of running nitrous, secret fuel, secret motors, etc. Truth is that we just take our time to obtain information that others overlook. Alignment is just one of dozens. Almost all the cars we've tested have had gains from alignment. The optimum alignment will change based on what you're doing, what kind of power you are making and if you have rubber or poly mounts. We did a standard toe alginment, we could probably get a bit more power from adjusting toe but that wouldn't be the kind of 'stock' we are looking for.
Soon we expect to be easily hitting 300WHP with the stock M62. Seems nearly impossible but take this alignment thing most people don't know about. That's one thing that gave 4HP. Some cars would be little or none. Add 20 little things like that each netting 1/2 a HP up to 4HP like this one. Add that to your dyno and it's easy to see how 300WHP comes quickly...
03-11-2009 | 07:02 PM
#11
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Joined: 12-28-05
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From: Birmingham, Alabama
What was interesting is that all 3 intakes had the exact same AF ratio on the dyno. This meant we didn't have to interpret AF ratios affect on HP. We were suprised, pleasantly.
No contradiction. Please reread. Any time you dyno a car you want a stock baseline but you have to establish what that 'stock' is. What ECT, what ambient temps, what gas, has ANYTHING been done to the car, etc. This is the only way to obtain precise data.
Wheel alignment is nothing new. ZZP generally runs much, much faster than anyone else can with the same cars. This is done with highly specific testing and use of many small tools that add up to give us tremendous advantages over others. We regularly get acused of running nitrous, secret fuel, secret motors, etc. Truth is that we just take our time to obtain information that others overlook. Alignment is just one of dozens. Almost all the cars we've tested have had gains from alignment. The optimum alignment will change based on what you're doing, what kind of power you are making and if you have rubber or poly mounts. We did a standard toe alginment, we could probably get a bit more power from adjusting toe but that wouldn't be the kind of 'stock' we are looking for.
Soon we expect to be easily hitting 300WHP with the stock M62. Seems nearly impossible but take this alignment thing most people don't know about. That's one thing that gave 4HP. Some cars would be little or none. Add 20 little things like that each netting 1/2 a HP up to 4HP like this one. Add that to your dyno and it's easy to see how 300WHP comes quickly...
No contradiction. Please reread. Any time you dyno a car you want a stock baseline but you have to establish what that 'stock' is. What ECT, what ambient temps, what gas, has ANYTHING been done to the car, etc. This is the only way to obtain precise data.
Wheel alignment is nothing new. ZZP generally runs much, much faster than anyone else can with the same cars. This is done with highly specific testing and use of many small tools that add up to give us tremendous advantages over others. We regularly get acused of running nitrous, secret fuel, secret motors, etc. Truth is that we just take our time to obtain information that others overlook. Alignment is just one of dozens. Almost all the cars we've tested have had gains from alignment. The optimum alignment will change based on what you're doing, what kind of power you are making and if you have rubber or poly mounts. We did a standard toe alginment, we could probably get a bit more power from adjusting toe but that wouldn't be the kind of 'stock' we are looking for.
Soon we expect to be easily hitting 300WHP with the stock M62. Seems nearly impossible but take this alignment thing most people don't know about. That's one thing that gave 4HP. Some cars would be little or none. Add 20 little things like that each netting 1/2 a HP up to 4HP like this one. Add that to your dyno and it's easy to see how 300WHP comes quickly...
also my question about the tune and the intake working better???
03-11-2009 | 07:13 PM
#14
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From: Chicago...Land
You didn't misread.... Stock is stock. If you add more parts and tunes to a car you cannot call it vs stock. Certain performance mod's i.e. intake or exhaust will have greater gains due to what supporting mods are already on the car. Yeah you may have taken a "stock" baseline but that is prolly not the gains you will see when installing them on a "factory stock" car.
03-11-2009 | 07:20 PM
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From: Grand Rapids, MI
No, we based our tune on a stock intake. The ZZP and injen intakes didn't change AF ratio. This was suprising but it made the job much easier.
If they are not, we'll report back honestly and then change them.
This testing isn't just about ZZP stuff. dual pass, a HE, pulley size, etc have nothing to do with brands. Quit hating.
I agree. Stock is totally stock. Perhaps I misworded my first post.
The "stock" intake doesn't mean the car was stock. The car has been dyno'd stock and I have edited to add that chart. OUr dyno will only let us overlay 3 graphs and I don't see the point of comparing a bone stock car to one with all the mods and then talking about the intake. We were isolating the fuction of the intake system on the 3 lines in the first dyno graph.
To compare different parts, you need to change as little as possible and just redyno changing only the intake. We felt that a test using common parts was best suited for testing the intakes. We do not personally have interest in what a bone stock Cobalt will do with 2.75" intake vs. a 3". We don't plan on ever running like that and most people buying mods don't either.
When we did our spark plug test we just changed plugs and nothing else. Then we redid the test with a stock pulley, 3.1" pulley, 3.0", 2.9 and 2.8. That way we could see when it's worth doing plugs, what plugs are best and what the gains are with different pulleys.
When we did the pulley size test, we didn't change anything. Just dropped pulley size .1 at a time and ran two or three dynos for each size. That way we isolate the performance of each size. Then we monitor KR, temps, etc. In this way we learn the characteristics of each pulley. For example, we generally gained 3 ft/lbs of torque by dropping .1 in pulley size. We gained HP until we went to a 2.9, there we didn't gain HP. But more on that in another thread. This is just about intake systems and the components effect on the engine.
If they are not, we'll report back honestly and then change them.
This testing isn't just about ZZP stuff. dual pass, a HE, pulley size, etc have nothing to do with brands. Quit hating.
I agree. Stock is totally stock. Perhaps I misworded my first post.
The "stock" intake doesn't mean the car was stock. The car has been dyno'd stock and I have edited to add that chart. OUr dyno will only let us overlay 3 graphs and I don't see the point of comparing a bone stock car to one with all the mods and then talking about the intake. We were isolating the fuction of the intake system on the 3 lines in the first dyno graph.
To compare different parts, you need to change as little as possible and just redyno changing only the intake. We felt that a test using common parts was best suited for testing the intakes. We do not personally have interest in what a bone stock Cobalt will do with 2.75" intake vs. a 3". We don't plan on ever running like that and most people buying mods don't either.
When we did our spark plug test we just changed plugs and nothing else. Then we redid the test with a stock pulley, 3.1" pulley, 3.0", 2.9 and 2.8. That way we could see when it's worth doing plugs, what plugs are best and what the gains are with different pulleys.
When we did the pulley size test, we didn't change anything. Just dropped pulley size .1 at a time and ran two or three dynos for each size. That way we isolate the performance of each size. Then we monitor KR, temps, etc. In this way we learn the characteristics of each pulley. For example, we generally gained 3 ft/lbs of torque by dropping .1 in pulley size. We gained HP until we went to a 2.9, there we didn't gain HP. But more on that in another thread. This is just about intake systems and the components effect on the engine.
Last edited by Zooomer; 03-11-2009 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
03-11-2009 | 07:21 PM
#16
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Joined: 12-28-05
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From: Birmingham, Alabama
No, we based our tune on a stock intake. The ZZP and injen intakes didn't change AF ratio. This was suprising but it made the job much easier.
If they are not, we'll report back honestly and then change them.
This testing isn't just about ZZP stuff. dual pass, a HE, pulley size, etc have nothing to do with brands. Quit hating.
If they are not, we'll report back honestly and then change them.
This testing isn't just about ZZP stuff. dual pass, a HE, pulley size, etc have nothing to do with brands. Quit hating.
i have another question why only compare stock, injen, zzp? why not add in rebel, aem, OTTP, K&N, or anyother intakes out there?
03-11-2009 | 07:21 PM
#17
What was interesting is that all 3 intakes had the exact same AF ratio on the dyno. This meant we didn't have to interpret AF ratios affect on HP. We were suprised, pleasantly.
No contradiction. Please reread. Any time you dyno a car you want a stock baseline but you have to establish what that 'stock' is. What ECT, what ambient temps, what gas, has ANYTHING been done to the car, etc. This is the only way to obtain precise data.
I didn't post the baseline dyno. We have already done about 100 dyno tests on this car. We've done spark plugs, PCMs, rev limiters, pulley sizes, intakes. We'll be doing dual pass, HE, TB, and lots of our own personal goodies shortly. I'll be posting more as we reach the topics but I was trying to keep this one about intakes. Here's the stock file vs. our 1.0 PCM.
Wheel alignment is nothing new. ZZP generally runs much, much faster than anyone else can with the same cars. This is done with highly specific testing and use of many small tools that add up to give us tremendous advantages over others. We regularly get acused of running nitrous, secret fuel, secret motors, etc. Truth is that we just take our time to obtain information that others overlook. Alignment is just one of dozens. Almost all the cars we've tested have had gains from alignment. The optimum alignment will change based on what you're doing, what kind of power you are making and if you have rubber or poly mounts. We did a standard toe alginment, we could probably get a bit more power from adjusting toe but that wouldn't be the kind of 'stock' we are looking for.
Soon we expect to be easily hitting 300WHP with the stock M62. Seems nearly impossible but take this alignment thing most people don't know about. That's one thing that gave 4HP. Some cars would be little or none. Add 20 little things like that each netting 1/2 a HP up to 4HP like this one. Add that to your dyno and it's easy to see how 300WHP comes quickly...
No contradiction. Please reread. Any time you dyno a car you want a stock baseline but you have to establish what that 'stock' is. What ECT, what ambient temps, what gas, has ANYTHING been done to the car, etc. This is the only way to obtain precise data.
I didn't post the baseline dyno. We have already done about 100 dyno tests on this car. We've done spark plugs, PCMs, rev limiters, pulley sizes, intakes. We'll be doing dual pass, HE, TB, and lots of our own personal goodies shortly. I'll be posting more as we reach the topics but I was trying to keep this one about intakes. Here's the stock file vs. our 1.0 PCM.
Wheel alignment is nothing new. ZZP generally runs much, much faster than anyone else can with the same cars. This is done with highly specific testing and use of many small tools that add up to give us tremendous advantages over others. We regularly get acused of running nitrous, secret fuel, secret motors, etc. Truth is that we just take our time to obtain information that others overlook. Alignment is just one of dozens. Almost all the cars we've tested have had gains from alignment. The optimum alignment will change based on what you're doing, what kind of power you are making and if you have rubber or poly mounts. We did a standard toe alginment, we could probably get a bit more power from adjusting toe but that wouldn't be the kind of 'stock' we are looking for.
Soon we expect to be easily hitting 300WHP with the stock M62. Seems nearly impossible but take this alignment thing most people don't know about. That's one thing that gave 4HP. Some cars would be little or none. Add 20 little things like that each netting 1/2 a HP up to 4HP like this one. Add that to your dyno and it's easy to see how 300WHP comes quickly...
03-11-2009 | 07:21 PM
#18
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Joined: 09-05-07
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From: FL.. FT LAUDERDALE/MAIMI
No, we based our tune on a stock intake. The ZZP and injen intakes didn't change AF ratio. This was suprising but it made the job much easier.
If they are not, we'll report back honestly and then change them.
This testing isn't just about ZZP stuff. dual pass, a HE, pulley size, etc have nothing to do with brands. Quit hating.
If they are not, we'll report back honestly and then change them.
This testing isn't just about ZZP stuff. dual pass, a HE, pulley size, etc have nothing to do with brands. Quit hating.
DO you plan on running a test against rebel,ott,k and n and aem?
03-11-2009 | 07:25 PM
#19
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Joined: 03-16-08
Posts: 3,651
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From: Chicago...Land
No, we based our tune on a stock intake. The ZZP and injen intakes didn't change AF ratio. This was suprising but it made the job much easier.
If they are not, we'll report back honestly and then change them.
This testing isn't just about ZZP stuff. dual pass, a HE, pulley size, etc have nothing to do with brands. Quit hating.
I agree. Stock is totally stock. Perhaps I misworded my first post.
The "stock" intake doesn't mean the car was stock. The car has been dyno'd stock and I have edited to add that chart. OUr dyno will only let us overlay 3 graphs and I don't see the point of comparing a bone stock car to one with all the mods and then talking about the intake. We were isolating the fuction of the intake system on the 3 lines in the first dyno graph.
To compare different parts, you need to change as little as possible and just redyno changing only the intake. We felt that a test using common parts was best suited for testing the intakes. We do not personally have interest in what a bone stock Cobalt will do with 2.75" intake vs. a 3". We don't plan on ever running like that and most people buying mods don't either.
If they are not, we'll report back honestly and then change them.
This testing isn't just about ZZP stuff. dual pass, a HE, pulley size, etc have nothing to do with brands. Quit hating.
I agree. Stock is totally stock. Perhaps I misworded my first post.
The "stock" intake doesn't mean the car was stock. The car has been dyno'd stock and I have edited to add that chart. OUr dyno will only let us overlay 3 graphs and I don't see the point of comparing a bone stock car to one with all the mods and then talking about the intake. We were isolating the fuction of the intake system on the 3 lines in the first dyno graph.
To compare different parts, you need to change as little as possible and just redyno changing only the intake. We felt that a test using common parts was best suited for testing the intakes. We do not personally have interest in what a bone stock Cobalt will do with 2.75" intake vs. a 3". We don't plan on ever running like that and most people buying mods don't either.
03-11-2009 | 07:31 PM
#20
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Joined: 03-10-07
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From: Columbia, SC
Do you want to take a poll on how many people actually have 60's in their car? I would say that approx 70% of people on this forum started with either stg 2 or a cai when starting their modding. If I am wrong I am wrong but not everyone has the money to rock a tune 60's a tune and 2.8 pulley.
03-11-2009 | 07:33 PM
#22
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Joined: 03-16-08
Posts: 3,651
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From: Chicago...Land
do you just like to find things to bust their *****? What do you have against them? Read what the **** he said, most people that are modding are not going to throw a 3 inch intake on their car, unless they are modding their car a little more heavily. Can people please get off of ZZP's back, its like they try and do one thing, and then people want 40 more from them. So chill the **** out, before they decide to quit doing everything with our cars and then you will have more to complain about because you can't find anywhere to buy mods.
03-11-2009 | 07:36 PM
#24
do you just like to find things to bust their *****? What do you have against them? Read what the **** he said, most people that are modding are not going to throw a 3 inch intake on their car, unless they are modding their car a little more heavily. Can people please get off of ZZP's back, its like they try and do one thing, and then people want 40 more from them. So chill the **** out, before they decide to quit doing everything with our cars and then you will have more to complain about because you can't find anywhere to buy mods.
At he speaks as an adult not a child. there is nothing wrong with questions?
OP interesting i always wondered about changing the "style" and weather it would effect dyno numbers
03-11-2009 | 07:37 PM
#25